Cut-Off vs Tough button 3-bettor
 

Online game, I raise 44 in the cut-off. My raise to steal is about 40 percent, expert who plays a Stoxtraderish style 3-bets me on the button.

Flop 983 with 2 spades. I check and call.

Turn Q.

Here is the question. A very strong playing friend of mine says the turn now becomes a check-fold. I usually never fold 44 in a spot like this when no A or K is on the board.

Thoughts?

Re: Cut-Off vs Tought button 3-bettor
 

problem is that you should probably be folding the vast majority of river cards if he fires a 3rd barrel.
I mix it up here, sometimes i fold right here, sometimes i c/c and reeval on the river. Close spot

Re: Cut-Off vs Tough button 3-bettor
 

i think there are two lines in a hand like this, cr the flop and try to value bet every street and eval if you are raised. or c-c every street unless and A peels or you think you are beat for anouther reason (timing tell etc.)

as is if i was the other player i would be value betting everystreet with AQ, AK, and maybe AJ, obv depending on the player, but at least it is worth keeping in mind that he may be value betting a worse hand.

dave

Re: Cut-Off vs Tough button 3-bettor
 

[ QUOTE ]
Online game, I raise 44 in the cut-off. My raise to steal is about 40 percent, expert who plays a Stoxtraderish style 3-bets me on the button.

Flop 983 with 2 spades. I check and call.

Turn Q.

Here is the question. A very strong playing friend of mine says the turn now becomes a check-fold. I usually never fold 44 in a spot like this when no A or K is on the board.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is re-stealing with a 20% range you have about 34% equity on this turn. I can't see folding when you are getting better than 5 to 1. His bets on the flop and turn are automatic and you have zero read on his hand at this point.

I like check raise on the flop. I also like check calling the flop and donking the turn on anything other than an ace or king. You should make an aggressive move somewhere.

Re: Cut-Off vs Tough button 3-bettor
 

im folding this just about always. calling just makes the river play that much more difficult

Re: Cut-Off vs Tough button 3-bettor
 

[ QUOTE ]
im folding this just about always. calling just makes the river play that much more difficult

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really bad reason to fold in a high stakes game against a tough player. Nobody said it was going to be easy. I checkraise the flop a lot here but it must be the case that if I never check/call with a pair here I'm making a mistake, so the flop check/call seems fine.

I'll take a shot at what the tough friend said about check/folding the turn - could it be that a good tough opponent will recognize the Queen as a really bad card and therefore if he bets again he has a pair of some sort (which we beat basically none of). If he has AK its one of those boards where he isn't beating much. I disagree with Dave Mac that he will/should bet AK/AJ for value here, the Queen is a particularly bad card, he beats only KJ and AT and perhaps a goofier hand like 76.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Cut-Off vs Tough button 3-bettor
 

i understand that the reasoning is pretty damn weak, but i just feel there's better spots to put in big bets than on a board like that where you are just left hoping and out of position.

Re: Cut-Off vs Tough button 3-bettor
 

"but i just feel there's better spots to put in big bets"

This is a high stakes CASH game. Waiting for better spots is rarely if ever a consideration...this is the spot

Re: Cut-Off vs Tough button 3-bettor
 

"I'll take a shot at what the tough friend said about check/folding the turn - could it be that a good tough opponent will recognize the Queen as a really bad card and therefore if he bets again he has a pair of some sort (which we beat basically none of). "


Well, I think the friend was basically saying that I dont beat the guys range enough to call twice, and I dont have enough info to call once and then fold the river UI.

I am not so sure I agree, in fact I always just call twice here if I didnt put in action on an earlier street. Unfortunately this is possibly a leak cause they almost always show me a hand better than mine

Re: Cut-Off vs Tough button 3-bettor
 

[ QUOTE ]
I checkraise the flop a lot here but it must be the case that if I never check/call with a pair here I'm making a mistake, so the flop check/call seems fine.


[/ QUOTE ]


Given the times you do c/c, what is your turn play?