Two Plus Two Newer Archives - an argument against HUDs

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an argument against HUDs

villain here is 30/20/2. i was folding the river. i am going back to not using a hud.

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) PokerBob is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, PokerBob raises, Button folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, PokerBob caps, SB calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9SB, 2 players)
SB checks, PokerBob bets, SB raises, PokerBob calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, PokerBob calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8.5BB, 2 players)
SB checks, PokerBob checks.

Results:
Final pot: 8.5BB
PokerBob showed Tc Kc
SB showed Qs Qc

Re: an argument against HUDs

I don't get your point. Most 30/20/2 players at 10/20 aren't betting that river unless they beat KT. Case in point, I recently saw this hand where one of them had QQ and this other guy had KT on an AKxx board . . .

[ QUOTE ]
villain here is 30/20/2. i was folding the river. i am going back to not using a hud.

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) PokerBob is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, PokerBob raises, Button folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, PokerBob caps, SB calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9SB, 2 players)
SB checks, PokerBob bets, SB raises, PokerBob calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, PokerBob calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8.5BB, 2 players)
SB checks, PokerBob checks.

Results:
Final pot: 8.5BB
PokerBob showed Tc Kc
SB showed Qs Qc

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: an argument against HUDs

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get your point. Most 30/20/2 players at 10/20 aren't betting that river unless they beat KT. Case in point, I recently saw this hand where one of them had QQ and this other guy had KT on an AKxx board . . .

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i guess my point is that villains flop check/raise is utterly retarded, and i assumed a 30/20/2 guy would not do something so moronic. what does he think i have?
i either have him crucified or i am folding. in the off chance that i have KQ-KT, his only hope of winning the pot is to fire every street, as his line is super strong and i cannot call the with merely a king unless i think the guy is a total monkey, which, if you belive 30/20, he shouldn't be/. after playing more with him, he proved to be a total spazz, but still had the coveted 30/20 stats, so on paper looked like a good player, but he was capable of this........
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) PokerBob is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Button folds, SB calls, PokerBob checks.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2SB, 2 players)
SB checks, PokerBob checks.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (1BB, 2 players)
SB checks, PokerBob bets, SB raises, PokerBob 3-bets, SB caps, PokerBob calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9BB, 2 players)
SB bets, PokerBob raises, SB 3-bets, PokerBob calls.

Results:
Final pot: 15BB
SB showed 3s 5s
PokerBob mucks Kd 7h

Re: an argument against HUDs

pbob, dont weigh hud stats so heavily for postflop decisions. huds are best used for pf hand ranges. this is obv.

Re: an argument against HUDs

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pbob, dont weigh hud stats so heavily for postflop decisions. huds are best used for pf hand ranges. this is obv.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i havent used a HUD in ages, so i guess it wasn't obvious to me. i am dumb.

Re: an argument against HUDs

[ QUOTE ]
i guess my point is that villains flop check/raise is utterly retarded, and i assumed a 30/20/2 guy would not do something so moronic. what does he think i have?
i either have him crucified or i am folding. in the off chance that i have KQ-KT, his only hope of winning the pot is to fire every street, as his line is super strong and i cannot call the with merely a king unless i think the guy is a total monkey, which, if you belive 30/20, he shouldn't be/. after playing more with him, he proved to be a total spazz, but still had the coveted 30/20 stats, so on paper looked like a good player, but he was capable of this........

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You haven't exactly covered yourself with glory here.

1. Capping preflop with KTs is a spazz play in its own right.

2. Betting the flop is a highly questionable decision. What did you hope to accomplish?

3. Assuming that a player is good postflop based on his preflop statistics is ridiculous. Blaming the HUD is like using a knife to hammer nails and then complaining when you hit your thumb.

4. You still don't realize that (consciously or not) Villain has completely outplayed you. He got to show down his hand from OOP for less than the going rate. The chips he did spend all went in while his two outs were still live. I might have questioned his play but you explained why he is right: "i either have him crucified or i am folding." That makes the river an easy checkfold for him once you call the turn. Plus even if you do have JJ or something he can expect you not to bet it.

Re: an argument against HUDs

not using a HUD is retarded

Re: an argument against HUDs

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i guess my point is that villains flop check/raise is utterly retarded, and i assumed a 30/20/2 guy would not do something so moronic. what does he think i have?
i either have him crucified or i am folding. in the off chance that i have KQ-KT, his only hope of winning the pot is to fire every street, as his line is super strong and i cannot call the with merely a king unless i think the guy is a total monkey, which, if you belive 30/20, he shouldn't be/. after playing more with him, he proved to be a total spazz, but still had the coveted 30/20 stats, so on paper looked like a good player, but he was capable of this........

[/ QUOTE ]
You haven't exactly covered yourself with glory here.

1. Capping preflop with KTs is a spazz play in its own right.

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capping preflop is fine here, as his range is likey larger from the SB than it is from the BB. one more bet preflop may get him to fold a hand incorrectly postflop. it may be a bit loose, but to call it spazzy is too much.

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2. Betting the flop is a highly questionable decision. What did you hope to accomplish?

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agreed. but i like just betting.

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3. Assuming that a player is good postflop based on his preflop statistics is ridiculous. Blaming the HUD is like using a knife to hammer nails and then complaining when you hit your thumb.

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i never blamed the HUD. even though assuming one plays well postflop because of stats may be ridiculous, it is very common and an easy trap to fall in to. there are examples of it on these boards every day.

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4. You still don't realize that (consciously or not) Villain has completely outplayed you. He got to show down his hand from OOP for less than the going rate. The chips he did spend all went in while his two outs were still live. I might have questioned his play but you explained why he is right: "i either have him crucified or i am folding." That makes the river an easy checkfold for him once you call the turn. Plus even if you do have JJ or something he can expect you not to bet it.

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this is absurd. just because he got to show his hand down for less than 2.5BB doesn't mean he played the hand well. his SD value on this board is almost nil. his flop play only makes sense if he intends to follow through, which he didn't.

once i call the flop and turn, his only prayer is to bet the river. what can i have? AK? no. i give more action on that board. AQ, maybe, although that is less likely given that he holds 2 Q's. AJ-ATs? perhaps. KQ-KT or JJ? possibly. given the size of the pot, not betting the river is horrible. sure i wont bet JJ, but i'm not calling with it either, so a bet doesn't hurt him there. but a bet may fold out KQ-KT, so it is definitely worth a stab.

Re: an argument against HUDs

i just assume everyone is retarded postflop until i know they're decent.