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-   -   PSA: One line answers (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=503752)

ama0330 09-18-2007 12:18 PM

PSA: One line answers
 
Im going to start cracking down on one line answers. It is just not good enough to come into a thread and say something like "call" with no justification for why you think that is the best course of action. Obviously, sometimes the hand is very obvious (should I go all in with AA preflop??!! ololool) but most of the threads here require more anaylsis than that.

So in future if I catch you making some weak-sauce reply like "call>>>raise>>>>>fold " and you dont explain your reasoning I'll just delete your post. If you keep on doing it I'll just ban you for a couple of days so you can think about it. These forums exist so we can help one another with our games and one line posts do nothing but clutter threads and piss off moderators.

If you don't know the answer to the hand posted, then ask a question like "should we really be stacking off with AQ here when I think that a big part of his range is sets?" or alternatively, just read and learn.

THANKS

-ama


ps. call>>raise>>>>>fold obv

traz 09-18-2007 12:24 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
Am I allowed to respond to this thread? It's not locked :P

I think trying to garner more discussion is an admirable goal...but cracking down on one-liners may just encourage the lazy to post less. *Raises hand

Alot of hands really don't need a ton of explanation. If someone doesn't understand the one-liner than they should ask. In addition, sometimes I don't WANT to read alot of analysis. Sometimes I just want a one-line opinion from a bunch of posters.

I think, in general, this kind of rule isn't ideal. I do understand what you're trying to achieve and I trust you'll make sure not to drop the pwnstick unnecessarily. But that's just my opinion.

ama0330 09-18-2007 12:30 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
Im talking about really blatant lack of effort, maybe I should have said one WORD answers instead of one line answers. Like you go into a thread and it says "fold flop". What the hell does that achieve? Nothing. Sure, some hands dont need a great deal of explanation, so make it a brief explanation. Like -

BAD: "Fold flop"

GOOD: "Fold flop. You're usually behind to a set here and preflop action makes it hard for him to have AA/KK"

That extra sentence makes all the difference IMO.

Nogatsira 09-18-2007 12:31 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
ama>>rest ldo

No but for real, it's about time someone steps up!
I notice myself posting some very short replies sometimes and it really blows because honestly nobody learns anything from it.
There is, or there should be, an explanation for every move you do while you're playing, so you might aswell type the reasoning with it to help others or to find leaks in your own thoughts.

A+ thread!

0524432 09-18-2007 12:34 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
Good point ama, I will make a point to keep myself in line as well.

However, I'd like you to address the idea of having the outcome of the hand in white txt at the end of the HH.( Example: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=1#Post12128482 ) I think this is a great way of still allowing the users to read through the lines, while still seeing some real results and how the villain played what etc...

JimboNYY24 09-18-2007 12:35 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
good idea

Nogatsira 09-18-2007 12:37 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
Good point ama, I will make a point to keep myself in line as well.

However, I'd like you to address the idea of having the outcome of the hand in white txt at the end of the HH.( Example: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=1#Post12128482 ) I think this is a great way of still allowing the users to read through the lines, while still seeing some real results and how the villain played what etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldnt even care what the results are. In this particular situation villain might have the nuts, in another he might have air.
You want to find a sollution to play a hand that would make most profit in the long run.
You might think a call is good in a hand and the results show you that it was a good call but actually it might have been a bad play (if you understand what i mean)

hennnerz 09-18-2007 12:43 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
good idea

[/ QUOTE ]

2 day ban plz.

EDIT: Because he didn't explain his response.

z28dreams 09-18-2007 12:46 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
Seriously....

I think people should have to post their BB/100 winrate next to their advice as well.

SOOOOOOO much bad advice on here it's not even funny.

Nogatsira 09-18-2007 12:49 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously....

I think people should have to post their BB/100 winrate next to their advice as well.

SOOOOOOO much bad advice on here it's not even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats why the reasoning behind their post would be good. If they say "call" then nobody knows why.
If they say "call because . . . ." then other people will see aswell if its a stupid answer or not or atleast discuss it.
There's no reason to post BB/100 because you would need to post a samplesize, the limits, amount of tables, ... and all other stuff aswell and it would still be bs. Everyone inhere is a uNL player

hennnerz 09-18-2007 12:55 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
This is redic. Try reading other NL forums and implementing this across them all, theres no way you could/would, so why here?

Its so so standard to just give the move you feel is correct, then if asked to people can expand their answers.

danny8 09-18-2007 01:14 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
i takes litterally no more effort to post a tiny reasoning instead of just 1 word. you obv dont need to right a small book every time you reply, but a simple '...coz i doubt he calls with anyhting you beat' etc, makes things much clearer. like nogatsira said a little explanation helps determine if the advice is good or not, its helps evertyone, especially the poster since he could have a completely wrong and backwards reason to their action.

zooot 09-18-2007 01:16 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
IMO - The point of posting hands in the first place is to uncover and understand the different elements you should be considering when deciding how to play a hand. You will be in many similar situations in the future, however, very rarely will you encounter the exact situation again. So, simply knowing the correct decision for a past situation w/out understanding the thought-process behind it leaves you unprepared for dealing w/ similar situations in the future. Clearly one should think on one's own about why a respondent might answer "call" instead of "raise". But presumably we've gone through this at the table when the hand was initially played, and yet still chose a different action for one reason or another.

edit: posted from perspective of one who receives MUCH more advice than he gives. obv ty's to all those who take time to give advice to the uNL'ers regardless of how many words you use.

traz 09-18-2007 01:21 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
I just think that SO many threads end up boiling down to "should I call because I'm ahead, or fold because I'm behind."

In these situations, saying anything except your preferred action ends up being very redundant. I guess I'm in the minority, but there are loads of situations where I think this is a little silly. It just seems like it's super nitty for mods to regulate this kind of thing.

Asking posters to explain there actions more would be fine. Saying "if you don't I will take mod action" is just not my cup of tea.

0524432 09-18-2007 01:30 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good point ama, I will make a point to keep myself in line as well.

However, I'd like you to address the idea of having the outcome of the hand in white txt at the end of the HH.( Example: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=1#Post12128482 ) I think this is a great way of still allowing the users to read through the lines, while still seeing some real results and how the villain played what etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldnt even care what the results are. In this particular situation villain might have the nuts, in another he might have air.
You want to find a sollution to play a hand that would make most profit in the long run.
You might think a call is good in a hand and the results show you that it was a good call but actually it might have been a bad play (if you understand what i mean)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the last I'll be commenting on this subject in this thread, as I think it is off topic. However, I don't how to further explain to you that while I DO very much appreciate and thrive off the learning technique regarding thinking through HHs without the results, I'm not proposing that be changed in any way. Contrary to your comment about how I should not care about the results, while I understand your point (which is a point we've all heard a million times), when it comes down to it, I DO care....sometimes. Not every post does it matter, but enough times, thinking through the HH and the line both the hero and villain without the results, and THEN being able to consult the outcome afterwards, IMO is VERY valuable.

Many times I have narrowed the range down to only a few hands even possibly a single hand which I'm always sure of, it is an undeniable learning tool to think through the hand (without the results) and then consult them if you choose.

IMO not only will it be rewarding to realize you're starting to understand some of the std lines these players are taking in certain situations, but also when you are wrong, be able to decide when/why you're thought process went wrong.

jk1986 09-18-2007 01:32 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
I just think that SO many threads end up boiling down to "should I call because I'm ahead, or fold because I'm behind."

In these situations, saying anything except your preferred action ends up being very redundant. I guess I'm in the minority, but there are loads of situations where I think this is a little silly. It just seems like it's super nitty for mods to regulate this kind of thing.

Asking posters to explain there actions more would be fine. Saying "if you don't I will take mod action" is just not my cup of tea.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Nogatsira 09-18-2007 01:33 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
I agree with you on that point 0524432 but I think when you add it in the opening post that alot of people will base their comments on the results.
What would be better is to post the result after the discussion is over, and then you can see if you went wrong somewhere yourself.

Keitan 09-18-2007 01:55 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
Posters asking for feedback can decide for themselves how much credit to give to comments based on numerous factors. If they choose to read a comment "Fold flop" as the one and only choice and apply it to every single similar situation then they are dumb, that's all. I don't see why these one liners would bother mods - players don't need to be spoon fed analysis and can judge a comment's merit on their own. I know I'm new, just my opinion - if this becomes the rule, wtvr, np.

Nogatsira 09-18-2007 01:56 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
What about some kind of system, lets name it the "EV-counter" where you can give people +1 or -1 depending on their posts.
Ive seen some forums where they give 'karma-points' like that. I don't think it would be a bad idea here.

jk1986 09-18-2007 01:58 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
What about some kind of system, lets name it the "EV-counter" where you can give people +1 or -1 depending on their posts.
Ive seen some forums where they give 'karma-points' like that. I don't think it would be a bad idea here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's kinda a HUGE change, although I know they were discussing changing how titles and stuff works recently somewhere, might be worth mentioning the idea there.

hennnerz 09-18-2007 01:58 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
What about some kind of system, lets name it the "EV-counter" where you can give people +1 or -1 depending on their posts.
Ive seen some forums where they give 'karma-points' like that. I don't think it would be a bad idea here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. +1 EV for you.

traz 09-18-2007 02:02 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
It was discussed as a replacement for the * system in OOT, the idea was ultimately disgarded

zooot 09-18-2007 02:04 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
after thinking about it - i actually don't mind having to ask for more info from someone who says "shove wtf". rather get that, and possibly a follow up than poor advice or nothing at all.

bozzer 09-18-2007 02:07 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
you better make sure you moderate this properly. a lot of (my) one line answers come from the flow of the thread.

ajmargarine 09-18-2007 02:12 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
What about some kind of system, lets name it the "EV-counter" where you can give people +1 or -1 depending on their posts.
Ive seen some forums where they give 'karma-points' like that. I don't think it would be a bad idea here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not available with this software. Might be available when they change over to a new system, which I think is coming up soon.

Richard Tanner 09-18-2007 02:19 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you on that point 0524432 but I think when you add it in the opening post that alot of people will base their comments on the results.
What would be better is to post the result after the discussion is over, and then you can see if you went wrong somewhere yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, when I'm looking at a hand, I read the HH and then decide, or at least try to decide, what I would do, and, because it's often two different things [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], try to decide the best play.

Then I like to see the results because each hand is a little like a murder mystery and I like to see who-done-it.

Cody

0524432 09-18-2007 02:23 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you on that point 0524432 but I think when you add it in the opening post that alot of people will base their comments on the results.
What would be better is to post the result after the discussion is over, and then you can see if you went wrong somewhere yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

true, that would make for an awfully bland 2p2 with a sudden surge of uNL genius'

ama0330 09-18-2007 02:50 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
All,

I am glad that my post has generated this discussion because I think that it is important.

Basically, I view the forum as a learning tool where we sit down and discuss things that none of us really know the true best answer to. Whats more, we often find that there are NO right answers to our questions, just good logic. So in this way, someone saying "call" may just be acting on feel, or impulse, or whatever.

But think about it this way. If you were discussing a hand with a friend, face to face, and he says "so what should I do on this flop?" and you say "call" - he's not just going to say "oh...ok" he's going to say "why?" Thats the reason we post hands, because of that "why". If I was sure every action I made was correct just because I felt it, why bother posting it here? I don't want you to tell me what YOU "feel" in one word about the hand, I want you to explain why you would take a certain action, as opposed to another one.

Thats why we have this forum, to expose ourselves to different thought processes and approaches so that we can modify and maybe improve our own. "Call" tells me NOTHING. All that tells me is that you want to call. Why? Just because you felt like it? Because you don't know what to do otherwise? Because you are a calling station? Thats what fish do. They take actions because they have no idea what to do otherwise, and they can't back their plays up with any kind of logic.

Have you ever asked a fish why they made a boneheaded play? I have. I bet pot on three streets into a guy who backdoored a flush, at the Gutshot in London. He called with no pair no draw on the flop. When I asked him why he called on the flop, he shrugged. "I dunno". Thats a classic fish right there - no idea why he called. When you give a one line answer, thats how it comes across - it makes it look like you are shrugging and saying you dont know.

This is 2p2. Every single one of you is here, in this forum, because you want to improve your game. That is simply not going to happen unless you put some minimal effort into the replies you give on this board. I'm not talking about writing essays, I'm talking about answering the "because". Justify your actions. Some of you may think I am over-reacting, but whats the point of having a board with the reputation of being the foremost authority on poker instruction if you cant learn anything from its members?

[ QUOTE ]
you better make sure you moderate this properly. a lot of (my) one line answers come from the flow of the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, this is fine, and I think we are all able to distinguish between what constitutes outright laziness, and what is part of a colloquial discussion of a hand. I'm not a grammar nazi, I'm here to supervise the quality of the responses to threads and keep the noise to a minimum.

You all know what I'm talking about.

EMc 09-18-2007 02:52 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
a. The results dont matter, dont post them
b. Ama is right
c. Very few have a sample size that makes BB/100 relevant, and on top of that, when we start talking about win rates dick swinging ensues
d. I usually will only post a one word answer if it has already been explained or if I feel it has value (i.e. I can give you a fish, or teach you to fish)

munkey 09-18-2007 03:12 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
I think it's goot that ama raised this , people who make longer replies have to think more and put the why process in to words which is often hard -for me anyway.

Some things to do
<ul type="square"> [*] Give a range for villan given the action [*]If it's an AI flop/ situation combo draw vs made hand e.t.c on the flop pokerstove &amp; EV calc FTW [*]Give an alternative to the main line others suggest[*]If it's a flop/turn situation, outline future potential/likely street action e.g. what if a scare card hits.[/list]
All these things help your own game and generate better discussion.

Though I think requoting what someone earlier has said should still be allowed as if a few say the same and really is only 1 line [to take] or it's ultra standard like the ones I often I post when running bad and unsure [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I think as long as people aren't chronic 1 liners and elaborate in some of their posts then its o.k.

Back to teh footie now.

thac 09-18-2007 03:16 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
Wow.



(JK obv.)

Good point ama, we're here to learn, not get a decision in a vacuum with no reasoning.

Willem 09-18-2007 03:19 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
Fwiw I'm happier with a one-word answer from a respected poster so I know it's probably right, than I am with a 300 word reply written by a noob (like myself).

Of course not all threads can be answered in a single-word reply, but when a good poster does reply with one word this is usually not the case.

Student Caine 09-18-2007 03:32 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
wtf...so "r4r!" is no longer an appropriate response? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Seriously though, I think the more explanation that can be provided the better. I do not know that it should come to banning someone, but then again I would really be surprised if it ever did come to that (surely a "Hey dude, please explain your answers" would be enough to prod us all along). [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Nemesis69 09-18-2007 03:33 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
I like it. I was discussing this problem with Nogatsira in class today. Good job [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Maybe IF people want a one-word reply they should add a poll [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

kurto 09-18-2007 03:48 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
a. The results dont matter, dont post them
b. Ama is right
c. Very few have a sample size that makes BB/100 relevant, and on top of that, when we start talking about win rates dick swinging ensues
d. I usually will only post a one word answer if it has already been explained or if I feel it has value (i.e. I can give you a fish, or teach you to fish)

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) I agree that brief answers are appropriate if its already been explained... in which case, its merely reinforcing that others agree with the logic. Though perhaps in those cases someone should quote the person who they're agreeing with...
(2) I am one of the many who WANT to know the results. I think its both interesting (like reading a murder mystery and then never learning who did it) and educational. One of the ways you learn how other players play is by watching. A fish might donk bet with one kind of hand and another wouldn't. Seeing how different types of players played different hands is helpful. When results are NOT what we expect, it reminds us to look at our opponents differently. "Oh... that kind of player WOULD push with this kind of hand on the turn. I should remember that although I wouldn't do that, clearly this type of player would. "

0524432 09-18-2007 03:54 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
a. The results dont matter, dont post them
b. Ama is right
c. Very few have a sample size that makes BB/100 relevant, and on top of that, when we start talking about win rates dick swinging ensues
d. I usually will only post a one word answer if it has already been explained or if I feel it has value (i.e. I can give you a fish, or teach you to fish)

[/ QUOTE ]


the winner/loser doesn't matter, but IMO seeing both hands to get real experience from reading down lines is crucial

From what it sounds like to me, the "results don't matter" has become the answer for the tough situation that including the two hands involved would cause regarding the useless bland responses that would come from poster reading the result of the HH before posting.

My ? is....can you allow the results to be shown once a poster enters a response?

0524432 09-18-2007 03:59 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a. The results dont matter, dont post them
b. Ama is right
c. Very few have a sample size that makes BB/100 relevant, and on top of that, when we start talking about win rates dick swinging ensues
d. I usually will only post a one word answer if it has already been explained or if I feel it has value (i.e. I can give you a fish, or teach you to fish)

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) I agree that brief answers are appropriate if its already been explained... in which case, its merely reinforcing that others agree with the logic. Though perhaps in those cases someone should quote the person who they're agreeing with...
(2) I am one of the many who WANT to know the results. I think its both interesting (like reading a murder mystery and then never learning who did it) and educational. One of the ways you learn how other players play is by watching. A fish might donk bet with one kind of hand and another wouldn't. Seeing how different types of players played different hands is helpful. When results are NOT what we expect, it reminds us to look at our opponents differently. "Oh... that kind of player WOULD push with this kind of hand on the turn. I should remember that although I wouldn't do that, clearly this type of player would. "

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, but you have to understand why they're doing it, to preserve 2p2

clowntable 09-18-2007 04:18 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[ QUOTE ]
Im going to start cracking down on one line answers. It is just not good enough to come into a thread and say something like "call" with no justification for why you think that is the best course of action. Obviously, sometimes the hand is very obvious (should I go all in with AA preflop??!! ololool) but most of the threads here require more anaylsis than that.

So in future if I catch you making some weak-sauce reply like "call&gt;&gt;&gt;raise&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;fold " and you dont explain your reasoning I'll just delete your post. If you keep on doing it I'll just ban you for a couple of days so you can think about it. These forums exist so we can help one another with our games and one line posts do nothing but clutter threads and piss off moderators.

If you don't know the answer to the hand posted, then ask a question like "should we really be stacking off with AQ here when I think that a big part of his range is sets?" or alternatively, just read and learn.

THANKS

-ama


ps. call&gt;&gt;raise&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;fold obv

[/ QUOTE ]
Please tell me that you came up with this after reading my selfquote in your what? thread. Because that was the idea behind it :P
I like it, swing the banhammer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

p.s.: Perosnally I don't even want much of a "do this because of that" kind of answer. I'd like an answer along the lines of "these are the things that should go through your head and lead to the decision"
Thought process + explaination of whot one would do based on the thought process &gt;Thought process &gt; recommendation only

mookboi 09-18-2007 04:52 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
FWIW, I think Sightless gives the best hit-the-nail-on-the-head type of advice, and I don't think I've ever seen him write more than one line.

I guess I see the reasoning behind the rule though.

Jamougha 09-18-2007 04:55 PM

Re: PSA: One line answers
 
[censored] you [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]


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