5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

Villain in this hand is bufo523. He has given me a ton of trouble in the past. He's very aggressive, a good hand reader, etc. I assume he's 2+2.

The last time we played I picked a few good spots to come over the top of him and he folded every time. He probably views me as slightly weak.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($891.75)
SB ($990)
BB ($200)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($1000)</font>
MP ($2092.50)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($1770)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $40</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $40, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($95) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $70</font>, Hero calls $70.

Turn: ($235) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $175</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?</font>

He's got a pretty wide range here. I'm guessing he bets almost everything when I check the flop. He probably checks behind some pairs on the turn for pot control, but I'm guessing he bets fairly often if he doesn't have a diamond.

So do people like a shove here, or is it time to give up? I can't really ask for a better turn card. If I'm not shoving this turn, I probably need to take a different line on the flop.

I usually bet the flop, but I occasionally toss in a check so that my checking range isn't entirely made up of garbage.

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

I really hate checking the flop against a good player here. He's going to own our soul since he's in position anyways, but I'd rather bet and make him react to our lead. Showing weakness like this and being OOP is going to be hell.

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

why on earth would you c/c the flop?

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

Please bet the flop, don't c/c. As played, I'd probably c/rai on the turn here. He's bettin turn with a rele wide range.

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Craing turn let's him play perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

the italics are getting annoying and you're wrong.

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

jkratzer,

Are there any merits to c/r flop?

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

I'd just fold. Am I a tagfish?

BTW, I absolutely hate your flop play.

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Craing turn let's him play perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

the italics are getting annoying and you're wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think he's calling with worse after you cr'ai 99 on the turn here... wow

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Craing turn let's him play perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

the italics are getting annoying and you're wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think he's calling with worse after you cr'ai 99 on the turn here... wow

[/ QUOTE ]

STFU DONT [censored] USE ITALICS ASDJGFSADFDS- i speak for us all

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

yo dude, stop the [censored] italics.

As played, i think this is a pretty clear call and c/c most non diamond rivers.

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Craing turn let's him play perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll go through my reasoning for the flop play in a bit, but I want to address this first.

Even if you assume that he plays perfectly against a check raise, that doesn't mean it's the wrong play. He may have a profitable bet with everything in his range against what he perceives to be my range in this spot. If I'm near the top of my range, my shove (which he folds to or calls perfectly) can still be +EV.

That may not be the case in the spot, but saying "he can play perfectly" doesn't end the discussion.

And I agree, enough with the italics.

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

For those of you who hate the flop play, what's your line and why? What if you know you're likely to get raised?

Here's how I looked at my options during the hand:

bet/fold: This is the standard line against most players, but against bufo I think I get raised here a ton. If I am bet/folding 99 then he probably has a profitable raise with any two cards. There's a price to be paid for being OOP, but I think my hand is too strong to put in a bet then give up against the pressure that is very likely to come.

bet/shove: If he is getting way out of line with his raising I can probably just shove over a raise. I didn't give much thought to this line because at the time it seemed super spewy.

bet/he calls. I'm OOP in a big pot with a marginal hand, but it's not the worst outcome. His range is narrowed a ton so at least my turn play is a little easier.

check/fold: I think my hand is too strong, even OOP, to be giving up on it for one bet.

check/call: I give him control of the hand in the hopes that he will fire again and I can profitably shove a good turn. One downside is that this takes a ton of strong hands out of my range, while giving me no real clue about what he has. If I don't intend to shove a large % of turns then I think this is terrible, but if I do, it gives him a chance to put the most money in when he's behind.

check/raise, bet/call: Didn't see much merit to these lines at the time, so I didn't put in much thought to either of them.

I don't like any of my options, which is why I try not to play too many pots oop vs. good/aggro players. But I had to pick something, so I took the c/c approach. I don't have any emotional attachment to my line so I'm not really interested in defending it, but if my thought process in this spot is flawed then I'd like to correct it. Eventually I have to start assigning ranges and plugging in the numbers, but I wanted to get a few thoughts first.

Thanks for the input so far.

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

bet the goddamn flop, fold to a raise. as played, he's putting you on like 87s, 66 w/d, or 99~ w/o. being that he is betting again on the best card for your range, i would not fault a fold.

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

but having gotten here, i'd never fold cuz i'm a stationnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Re: 5/10 oop, mid pair, tough opponent. allllll in?
 

[ QUOTE ]
For those of you who hate the flop play, what's your line and why? What if you know you're likely to get raised?

Here's how I looked at my options during the hand:

...

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel the same as OP here, lost.

Could someone please explain why betting is so much better when you know villain will bet if checked to 80% and raise if bet to like 25%?