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Praxising 11-27-2007 03:43 AM

Fantasy Ethics Question
 
I know this isn't usually the area for this sort of thing, but I know people here and have an actual reason for asking related to my Razz game, so bear with for a sec....

Pretend...you get hit by a falling brick (real brick) and when you wake up you find you have acquired a bit of psychic seeing. That is: if you concentrate on a piece of paper, or a card, you get an image of what is printed on the other side. It even works online.

Now, you aren't cheating in any traditional sense, you have not hacked a system, or even asked to be given this ability, it just happened. Do you use it to make millions of dollars playing poker? Or do you wear specially-coated glasses when you play that interfere with this special sight, because you feel like a cheat, otherwise?

Raxxmataxx 11-27-2007 07:05 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
At first I thought it was unethical, but thinking about it further it seems like it's similiar to just being incredibly smart or an extremely good reader.

I think the more thorny issue is concerning disclosure and hustling people to play. Something which actually do come up during real play.

No matter what conclusion I came to regarding the ethics I'd use it to win millions. When it comes to ensuring a life of economic indepence for me and my loved ones behaving ethically towards strangers have very little weight.

Truthiness24 11-27-2007 03:22 PM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to ensuring a life of economic indepence for me and my loved ones behaving ethically towards strangers have very little weight.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you still have to live with yourself. There are plenty of ways to make money ethically. Your sentiment feels morally bankrupt to me. It's hard to teach what's right to one's kids when one is willing to do anything for a buck.

I attacked the question differently. I'm not convinced that this is cheating. After all, anyone can bonk themselves with a brick and get the same powers. (Right?)

tinkerman 11-27-2007 03:28 PM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
An interesting question. To me I'd have to pick up the glasses. To me poker is about playing better than your opponents, the competition and the winning. I can't imagine getting any pleasure through being able to see other people's cards and the game would be boring.

Though I am saying this from a position of relative financial health. My answer may be different if the money would take me out of financial hardship.

RustyBrooks 11-27-2007 04:34 PM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
OPs example seems to cross a line that we'd all love to skirt. The best poker players can put their opponents on hands quite accurately, using skills they have, that their opponents do not. We just call this good poker, totally fair, etc. OP is talking about another potential gift that she would have and not the other players.

The reason this crosses the line is that there is no room for a defense to it. Against a gifted reader I can turn away, act crazy, wear sunglasses and put a hood over my face, alter my betting patterns, temporarily deviate from optimal strategy, or use any means of deception I like. Against someone with the ability to see my hole cards there is nothing I can do.

Personally I come across something like this all the time. Say, there's an old bastard next to me who not only doesn't protect his cards, but lifts them up a foot off the table and holds them perpendicular so that everyone 3 seats in either direction can see them. I tell him twice that I can see his cards, if that doesn't change anything, then I have to assume that he doesn't care, and I'm not going to mention it again. And if I can see his cards, I'll use that information.

roggles 11-27-2007 05:29 PM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
I would enter huge donkaments and not play Razz. I expect to get blinded out

Raxxmataxx 11-27-2007 08:40 PM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
[ QUOTE ]
But you still have to live with yourself. There are plenty of ways to make money ethically. Your sentiment feels morally bankrupt to me. It's hard to teach what's right to one's kids when one is willing to do anything for a buck.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, I specifically wasn't willing to do anything for a buck.

Which is why I don't cheat at poker. At most it'd gain me a couple of thousands a month. At least until I got very good at it. And then it's not worth the douchebag feeling, or the risk of getting caught. To be honest the latter is probably more important, I don't know that I would give up even small unethical edges if it were completely risk free.

But the described situation is much, much better. We're talking about extremely low risk coupled with obscene amounts of money. At that point, screw ethics, as long as I'm not killing anyone.

We're talking about gaining a few million dollars by transfering them from a bunch of gambling degens and poker sites. As sins goes, it's bad, but there's far worse out there.

So what I'm talking about isn't doing anything for a buck. It's moderately screwing over others for financial security otherwise unavailble. And frankly I'd want my children to do the same.
[ QUOTE ]
I attacked the question differently. I'm not convinced that this is cheating. After all, anyone can bonk themselves with a brick and get the same powers. (Right?)

[/ QUOTE ]While true, it's also true that anyone potentially could install a trojan or play with marked cards. This is a situation where it's pretty clear no one would play you if they knew your ability and that it would be forbidden in the rules if it were known to exist.

Andy B 11-28-2007 02:00 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
There are few things that I loathe more than getting into hypothetical arguments, but here I go. I wouldn't use this ability. It's just too sleazy. And if you did have this ability, you might be able to come up with something even more profitable than fleecing poker players.

Andy B 11-28-2007 02:02 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
The problem with your approach is that you use the information you gain against the other players. That is what makes looking at the other guy's cards unethical. I warn my opponents every time. I didn't always.

chucky 11-28-2007 02:18 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
[ QUOTE ]
And if you did have this ability, you might be able to come up with something even more profitable than fleecing poker players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean like finding WMD? Im sure OP could get quite a nice salary from NE if he shows them this ability.

Andy B 11-28-2007 02:41 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
This thread is already outside the normal scope of this forum. Let's not completely derail it.

Toronto86er 11-28-2007 02:43 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
I grew up in a family with much to be desired in the ways of income and am still...not rich. Right or wrong ethically, I wouldn't be able to resist doing this.

So I probably cave and do it, make millions, realize money isn't everything, feel extremely guilty, donate it to charity, continue low-income life.

Praxising 11-28-2007 03:47 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
[ QUOTE ]
So I probably cave and do it, make millions, realize money isn't everything, feel extremely guilty, donate it to charity, continue low-income life.

[/ QUOTE ]And find the happiness you could not find before, living the same life you now probably find frustrating. Grasshopper, you have attained true wisdom.

Andy, thanks for letting the thread stay for a day. And thanks for the answers, they are interesting, to say the least. So, this was an odd question but I am reading some research by a statistics professor who states that remote viewing is a mathematically proven trait after a few decades of replicable and tightly controlled studies. I was thinking about this when I was watching some high stakes Razz the other night and realized how many of the players at those limits I had notes on - from playing at .50/1.

When I see them down there, I never say anything, I just make a mental note to be careful in hands with them, they aren't going to be doing anything real stupid. If I knew you could see through the cards, like the fantasy question, I'd tell everyone. When, as a far superior player, does it become unethical, if ever, to play among the micros? Understand, these aren't 1/2 or 2/4 players, these are 5/10, 10/20 players.

I don't like it. They aren't hurting me, really, but...it just feels low class and wrong.

Is it just part of poker culture I have to get used to? Would you say anything to the other players? Am I just being a gurrrelllll?

Andy B 11-28-2007 03:57 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
What the hell's wrong with dropping down a few levels? I've played $30/60 and $2/4 on the same day on multiple occasions. And $5/10 and $10/20 players do plenty of stupid things. As do the $30/60 and $100/200 players. As do the big names.

I will refrain from sexist remarks. For now. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Praxising 11-28-2007 04:37 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
[ QUOTE ]
What the hell's wrong with dropping down a few levels? I've played $30/60 and $2/4 on the same day on multiple occasions. And $5/10 and $10/20 players do plenty of stupid things. As do the $30/60 and $100/200 players. As do the big names.

[/ QUOTE ] I very seriously don't mean to offend anyone, I know people play at multiple levels. I'm talking about someone multi-tabling from 10/20 and 5/10 who is keeping two .50/1 tables open. I'm not insisting I'm right, I'm asking.

What the hell is wrong with it? Well, a lot of people at micro are like me, we are, to be blunt, poor. Some older folks use poker to supplement income. Some of us use it as a sort of "neurological aid." Some can just barely get money on there to keep on learning. It feels like unfair advantage.

[ QUOTE ]
I will refrain from sexist remarks. For now. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, watch it, Buster! I was an expert shot and got my cyber-.357 aimed right at your icon!





prax<--wondering with arthritic hands and crappy eyesight if she could even hit the screen these days.....


..oh well, at least I rarely get thrown-up on, now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Andy B 11-29-2007 01:35 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
Most people suck at poker, be they $.10/.20 players or $40/80 players. I think around $100/200 online, you get to a level where most players are at least somewhat competent. The fact that someone plays $10/20 in no way indicates that they're a good player. Perhaps some $10/20 players started playing micro-limits with a $100 bankroll and built from there. Most $10/20 players got to that level by virtue of the fact that they have a job which allows them to throw off $500 or so about once a month, which is how often they play anyway.

Anyway, if you put a typical $10/20 player in a $.50/1.00 game, he is going to play poorly. It doesn't matter if he ten-tables $10/20 for a living--if you put him in the micro game, he's going to play like a monkey. It's very difficult to take small games seriously when you're used to playing much bigger. You should be welcoming those guys.

I'm pretty sure that the only person who has ever vomited on me is me.

Praxising 11-29-2007 03:14 AM

Re: Fantasy Ethics Question
 
Thanks, Andy, I think I get it, now. You know, I think I am finally starting to get kinda good at poker - well - at Razz. I find becoming acculturated to it to be most difficult. I really liked everyone's answers to the fantasy special powers question, helped me get the mindset.

I find that I am getting less and less empathetic to my competition and more and more - oh hell - greedy. It's antithetical to my nature, but all serves the truth, I guess. I kinda like it. Maybe being dedicated to being good at something that pays lots of money at the end IS my nature!

Razz is interesting in this light because it can be so incredibly obvious you are beaten. I called a hand today and I figured he had me boardlocked, but it was one of those where he knows I can't make better than a 7 to his made 6 on the river, but I couldn't know it yet. I called mostly because I didn't want him thinking he could bluff me off a 7 in future.

But sometimes EVERYBODY knows you are boardlocked. I used to feel bad for people who couldn't see it and not raise or reraise. Now I feel I am simply encouraging them to become more educated (gimmee your dough!!)

I write all this blather because I know there are a lot of new players like myself, who just have trouble getting with the program and keep losing their money because they were never taught to win. Not just women, either. Some of the distaff side are incredibly competitive.

Now - here's the fun part. This material I am reading describes one of the ESP researches that used an enhancement technique to increase the correct answers to a binary guessing game. Essentially they had a string of 1010101010000100111110010101001110001001010 and the participants had to guess which was next. The control runs were 51% accuracy, right in the expected range. The enhanced results over large number trials were over 70%. I haven't gotten to the appendices where the 'enhancements" are described - but if you could make the question binary: Is the card greater or lesser then 5? for instance, or just "helped him or hurt him" and if the enhancement is winning money...

These were gov't funded researches and after they got those amazing results, no one could figure out what possible use it could be, so they stopped working on it. Anyway, I've always been struck by Doyle Brunson's assertion in SS1 that a great poker player has ESP. And I am fascinated by the idea that it could be something like memory - no one knows how it works, but you can do things to make it better.


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