pair + draw vs spewtard
 

6k stacks. Villian is bad and spewy. He's very loose/passive preflop. Post flop he's nutty aggressive spewing in the most rediculous spots. That being said though I haven't seen him 3bet preflop a single time all night.

I've been v active and raising a LOT in pos. I'm sure to him I have a wild image when in fact I've been very well behaved post flop.

7 or 8 handed

I'm in the HJ with 66

I open to 175, CO makes it 500, I call.

FLOP (1075) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I need a plan. I'm 95% certain that villian either has JJ+ or AK.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

He sounds like the type that doesn't fold (especially on this type of flop where pictured overpairs are the nuts; bbs be damned). With that said, is there anything else you can do besides check-calling and hit a deuce (or 7 or 6)?

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

i dont see anything wrong with c/c. if he's on AK he may well check behind turn, if not and you miss, whatever. i'd probably c/c again on turn if you hit, then lead river. if turn checks through, lead river.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

start by checking, next?

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
6k stacks. Villian is bad and spewy. He's very loose/passive preflop. Post flop he's nutty aggressive spewing in the most rediculous spots. That being said though I haven't seen him 3bet preflop a single time all night.

I've been v active and raising a LOT in pos. I'm sure to him I have a wild image when in fact I've been very well behaved post flop.

7 or 8 handed

I'm in the HJ with 66

I open to 175, CO makes it 500, I call.

FLOP (1075) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I need a plan. I'm 95% certain that villian either has JJ+ or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-shove looks good. I'm not a huge fan of check-calling flop then check-folding turn given description.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

c/c, lead turn if you hit

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

I don't think check shove is great against that range. I think you should start by check calling.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

Against a spewer I think a donk is ok if you think he shoves a wheel draw

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

fold preflop or c/f flop imo. I imagine he is going to almost pot bet the flop or reraise u if u bet. Time to fold.

Maybe limp call preflop and same c/c/ flop?

Not sure you can continue in your current situation.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

i mean tbh, if we get it in we have like 40% equity almost or something. so like, getting it in can never be terrible, if you ask me.

but firs you should check, becuase leading is retarded here. so just tell us what happens after we cehck

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop or c/f flop imo. I imagine he is going to almost pot bet the flop or reraise u if u bet. Time to fold.

Maybe limp call preflop and same c/c/ flop?

Not sure you can continue in your current situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate limp calling since villain almost never 3bet

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

i check he bets 1050

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

reality check. pokerstove says you're looking at about 54% to win it (not knowing what suits your 6's are) if you have his range at JJ+,AKs,AKo.

even if you add the slightly more unlikely 33 - 55, you're still in the lead here.

<low level player warning>
i think you have enough equity in a shove of him folding to justify flipping coins.
</low level player warning>

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
i mean tbh, if we get it in we have like 40% equity almost or something. so like, getting it in can never be terrible, if you ask me.

but firs you should check, becuase leading is retarded here. so just tell us what happens after we cehck

[/ QUOTE ]

yeha i was suprised at all the c/c responses. im chking it looking to get it in. esp against a spewtard who will bet call Ak prob 100% of the time.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
i check he bets 1050

[/ QUOTE ]

aiaiaiaiai

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeha i was suprised at all the c/c responses. im chking it looking to get it in. esp against a spewtard who will bet call Ak prob 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i check he bets 1050

[/ QUOTE ]

aiaiaiaiai

[/ QUOTE ]

looks like we get our wish. i can't imagine not shove-raising this bet.

how'd it turn out, killah?

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i mean tbh, if we get it in we have like 40% equity almost or something. so like, getting it in can never be terrible, if you ask me.

but firs you should check, becuase leading is retarded here. so just tell us what happens after we cehck

[/ QUOTE ]

yeha i was suprised at all the c/c responses. im chking it looking to get it in. esp against a spewtard who will bet call Ak prob 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was under the impression this is a live game [which makes it less likely that he's calling a shove with AK and overvalue his pictured pairs].

If it is online, I lean towards a shove but let's look at the math.

There are 16 combos of AK and his sooted cousin. There are 24 combos of AA-JJ, creating a ratio of 2/3.

There's 1075 moneys in the pot. After a bet of 1050, each player has 4500 left. Now if we check-shoves and he has AK/AKs, he fold 40% of the time. The other 60%, he'll call w/ JJ+ and we'll have 40% equity.

I won't do algebra but it looks like American Eagles and FSU know what they're talking about.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 95% certain that villian either has JJ+ or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes calling preflop horrible. just check/shove now. he'll probably b/c his entire range and just getting it in here is better than any of the alternatives.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

39,600 games 0.016 secs 2,475,000 games/sec

Board: 5c 4d 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.965% 54.16% 00.81% 21447 319.00 { 6d6h }
Hand 1: 45.035% 44.23% 00.81% 17515 319.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }


---

What was your plan if you didn't flop huge?

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm 95% certain that villian either has JJ+ or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes calling preflop horrible. just check/shove now. he'll probably b/c his entire range and just getting it in here is better than any of the alternatives.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

39,600 games 0.016 secs 2,475,000 games/sec

Board: 5c 4d 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.965% 54.16% 00.81% 21447 319.00 { 6d6h }
Hand 1: 45.035% 44.23% 00.81% 17515 319.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }


---

What was your plan if you didn't flop huge?

[/ QUOTE ]

he was prob gonna c/f the flop?

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
What was your plan if you didn't flop huge?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is potentially a more interesting question. it's not a set, but it's a flop that puts your 6's in the lead.

you calling preflop purely for set/stack value? anything else, i have to think, is a clear clear c/f, correct?

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What was your plan if you didn't flop huge?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is potentially a more interesting question. it's not a set, but it's a flop that puts your 6's in the lead.

you calling preflop purely for set/stack value? anything else, i have to think, is a clear clear c/f, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

given

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 95% certain that villian either has JJ+ or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

then ya

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

obviously i'm calling only for set value but getting a flop like this was exactly part of the gameplan.

What do you guys think about his bet size? Don't you think he'd bet 800ish with AK instead a full pot? Bad players don't pot with AK. Speaking of his bet size...

Here's a hand villian spewed. He only bet 1/2 pot with his 4's here...

he raises button or co to 175, sb repops, he calls. He has 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Flop is 48Jccx (post is ~1200). sb checks, he bets 650, sb c/r's to 2100. He thinks and shoves for 1900 or so more. Sb calls with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and a pair of 4's scoops.


(this is online btw, not live)

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
obviously i'm calling only for set value but getting a flop like this was exactly part of the gameplan.

What do you guys think about his bet size? Don't you think he'd bet 800ish with AK instead a full pot? Bad players don't pot with AK. Speaking of his bet size...

Here's a hand villian spewed. He only bet 1/2 pot with his 4's here...

he raises button or co to 175, sb repops, he calls. He has 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Flop is 48Jccx (post is ~1200). sb checks, he bets 650, sb c/r's to 2100. He thinks and shoves for 1900 or so more. Sb calls with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and a pair of 4's scoops.


(this is online btw, not live)

[/ QUOTE ]
OMG, I'm such a newb. The whole time I was thinking this is 10/20 NL. Considering stacks are 120 bbs, it's an easy check-shove.

Even if we lower his ratio of AK to JJ+ from 2 out of 5 times to 1 out of 4 times [which is generous], this is still an easy check-shove.

As for the example you just gave, it's different because in this one, he didn't have the lead on pre-flop so on the flop, he bets to "see where he is at." On the hand versus you, he has the lead and will be more likely go berserko.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm 95% certain that villian either has JJ+ or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes calling preflop horrible. just check/shove now. he'll probably b/c his entire range and just getting it in here is better than any of the alternatives.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

39,600 games 0.016 secs 2,475,000 games/sec

Board: 5c 4d 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.965% 54.16% 00.81% 21447 319.00 { 6d6h }
Hand 1: 45.035% 44.23% 00.81% 17515 319.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }


---

What was your plan if you didn't flop huge?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it makes calling preflop exceptionally profitable. I can't believe this concept is lost on you.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]


Board: 5c 4d 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.965% 54.16% 00.81% 21447 319.00 { 6d6h }
Hand 1: 45.035% 44.23% 00.81% 17515 319.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }



[/ QUOTE ]
jesus i had no idea that 66 would be a favorite over that range. i thought it'd be like 70-30 against us.

i should probably play around with pokerstove or something sometimes.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

i can't believe im the first one to say this but c/r to something like 2700. all in sucks, AK folds and the overpairs will always call

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Board: 5c 4d 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.965% 54.16% 00.81% 21447 319.00 { 6d6h }
Hand 1: 45.035% 44.23% 00.81% 17515 319.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }



[/ QUOTE ]
jesus i had no idea that 66 would be a favorite over that range. i thought it'd be like 70-30 against us.

i should probably play around with pokerstove or something sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it's mostly because theres so many more AK possibilities, but still, if I'm 95% sure of these hands, I dunno about pushing, since AK may not be calling another 4500 with just the perceived gut and overs. Obv, that goes MORE towards the check/shove since you win without showdown, but the hands that DO call you almost every time have you in kinda bad shape


Board: 5c 4d 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.687% 37.88% 00.81% 9000 192.00 { 6d6h }
Hand 1: 61.313% 60.51% 00.81% 14376 192.00 { JJ+ }



Obviously, you could work some frequency distribution to figure this all out better, but while in a vacuum I think this is a pretty =EV, high variance play, for metagame purposes and such I probably check/shove this a good % of the time.


FWIW, I can't see how he has JJ+, AK 95% of the time. I'm about the biggest nit there is and my PFRR/PSB range isn't CLOSE to this narrow. "Spewtards" could show up here with hands that have you worse off that 37/63.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
i can't believe im the first one to say this but c/r to something like 2700. all in sucks, AK folds and the overpairs will always call

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree, i think AK is more likely to call a shove than to shove over or call a raise to 2700.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i can't believe im the first one to say this but c/r to something like 2700. all in sucks, AK folds and the overpairs will always call

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree, i think AK is more likely to call a shove than to shove over or call a raise to 2700.

[/ QUOTE ]

aren't you guys agreeing?

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
i can't believe im the first one to say this but c/r to something like 2700. all in sucks, AK folds and the overpairs will always call

[/ QUOTE ]

didnt u see the pokerstove? who cares? not like a smaller raise has less or more FE against his range. and i think he's more likely to continue with Ak if we shove, but again, doesnt really matter.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i can't believe im the first one to say this but c/r to something like 2700. all in sucks, AK folds and the overpairs will always call

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree, i think AK is more likely to call a shove than to shove over or call a raise to 2700.

[/ QUOTE ]

aren't you guys agreeing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't we want him to get it in with his entire range including AK and not just the hands that beat us?

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

i think you are almost guaranteed the equity against his range you put him on. someone above said he might have you worse than 36/64 or whatever. this is really never the case since bad players dont 3 bet with small suited connectors or small pocket pairs with position. they try to "flop big and win a big pot"

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
reality check. pokerstove says you're looking at about 54% to win it (not knowing what suits your 6's are) if you have his range at JJ+,AKs,AKo.

even if you add the slightly more unlikely 33 - 55, you're still in the lead here.

<low level player warning>
i think you have enough equity in a shove of him folding to justify flipping coins.
</low level player warning>

[/ QUOTE ]

Given villain's description (has not 3-bet pf ONCE prior), I would actually discount AK somewhat. I think its FAR more likely he has KK or AA here.

As such, i'd c/c and c/f turn ui.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]

As such, i'd c/c and c/f turn ui.

[/ QUOTE ]

ever visit the site www.lolweaktightnitaments.com?

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As such, i'd c/c and c/f turn ui.

[/ QUOTE ]

ever visit the site www.lolweaktightnitaments.com?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever visit www.imamassivedbag.com? [censored] off. I love how this guy hasn't 3-bet ONE time, and now he's got AK enough of the time to justify our equity when he snap calls our check-shove.

Oh, by the way - [censored] off.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

I'm not HSNL but quick thought. Equity is awesome vs his range and usually w/ 10 outs its OMG jam but only a hand like this doing a crai quick math says he needs to fold ~30% of the time to make it correct. I doubt for a guy that has never 3bet yet AK makes up a third of his range and hes prob never folding JJ+.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

preflop I was thinking JJ+, AK. On the flop when he pounded a PSB at the pot I strongly felt that AK was on the lower part of his range and I had next to zero fold equity. Against players with wider 3b ranges, I'd obv just c/r commit or jam whichever I'm in the mood to do at the time.

So figuring I had no fold equity I check/called the flop. Turn was another 4. I checked and he shoved. I folded.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not HSNL but quick thought. Equity is awesome vs his range and usually w/ 10 outs its OMG jam but only a hand like this doing a crai quick math says he needs to fold ~30% of the time to make it correct. I doubt for a guy that has never 3bet yet AK makes up a third of his range and hes prob never folding JJ+.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you show the math where he has to fold more than 30%?

I got a number much smaller than this.

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop I was thinking JJ+, AK. On the flop when he pounded a PSB at the pot I strongly felt that AK was on the lower part of his range and I had next to zero fold equity. Against players with wider 3b ranges, I'd obv just c/r commit or jam whichever I'm in the mood to do at the time.
[ QUOTE ]

So figuring I had no fold equity I check/called the flop. Turn was another 4. I checked and he shoved. I folded.

[/ QUOTE ]


Quote:

As such, i'd c/c and c/f turn ui.



ever visit the site www.lolweaktightnitaments.com?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: pair + draw vs spewtard
 

hek, you have 40% equity if he NEVER has AK. just get it in, please.