Why Limit?
 

What do you think the advantages of learning to be a strong limit player are, as opposed to focusing on NL? What people do you think would do better in limit than in NL? Will learning limit poker improve the overall game of a solid NL player?

I'm not trying to be a troll here. With NL being all the rage these days, I think it would be beneficial to explain to potential subscribers why they should consider learning limit poker.

Re: Why Limit?
 

The answer is really, "why not limit?" Most fundamentals of poker, like value betting, were built out of the limit poker model. Nearly all the concepts in Theory of Poker are written around limit poker. Limit is the base of most other forms of poker and if you want to improve your overall hand reading in any game, learning all the games is going to benefit you in the long run. Not only will this give you excellent game selection, your strength in NL Hold'em will improve too.

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think the advantages of learning to be a strong limit player are, as opposed to focusing on NL? What people do you think would do better in limit than in NL? Will learning limit poker improve the overall game of a solid NL player?

I'm not trying to be a troll here. With NL being all the rage these days, I think it would be beneficial to explain to potential subscribers why they should consider learning limit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I'm of the opinion that people should expose themselves to as many forms of poker as possible to become a well-rounded player. If someone were to ask me what they should learn, I'd really have to talk to them individuall first to figure out what the best choice would be.

We teach limit because that's our home, so to speak -- but we also have videos on limit O8, PLO (I'm taking lessons in this right now), the limit to NL transition, 2-7, Stud8, and Razz. There are a lot of great choices for instruction out there, both in one on one coaching and in video instruction, and I really think people are doing themselves a disservice if they focus too narrowly on one form or another.

As far as LHE itself goes, it's a game that's been around for quite a while and has demonstrated a fair amount of staying power. While I do actually think that NLHE has a lot of potential right now as a very profitable opportunity, I think that anyone focusing too much on what games they will learn will be susceptible to their game being a flash in the pan, and runs the risk of losing long term EV by focusing too much in the meantime.

Rob

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is really, "why not limit?" Most fundamentals of poker, like value betting, were built out of the limit poker model. Nearly all the concepts in Theory of Poker are written around limit poker. Limit is the base of most other forms of poker and if you want to improve your overall hand reading in any game, learning all the games is going to benefit you in the long run. Not only will this give you excellent game selection, your strength in NL Hold'em will improve too.

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that most early poker games were no limit, table stakes. Of course, that wasn't the case for the old draw games and lowball games in california, but a ton of games on the texas circuit were no limit or pot limit, and most of european poker is pot limit or no limit also.

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is really, "why not limit?" Most fundamentals of poker, like value betting, were built out of the limit poker model. Nearly all the concepts in Theory of Poker are written around limit poker. Limit is the base of most other forms of poker and if you want to improve your overall hand reading in any game, learning all the games is going to benefit you in the long run. Not only will this give you excellent game selection, your strength in NL Hold'em will improve too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate what a strong NL player (winner at 400NL and below) gains by learning limit? I feel like I should learn limit (specifically short-handed) and then turned off by not learning any thing and spew off. What exactly am I gaining?

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer is really, "why not limit?" Most fundamentals of poker, like value betting, were built out of the limit poker model. Nearly all the concepts in Theory of Poker are written around limit poker. Limit is the base of most other forms of poker and if you want to improve your overall hand reading in any game, learning all the games is going to benefit you in the long run. Not only will this give you excellent game selection, your strength in NL Hold'em will improve too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate what a strong NL player (winner at 400NL and below) gains by learning limit? I feel like I should learn limit (specifically short-handed) and then turned off by not learning any thing and spew off. What exactly am I gaining?

[/ QUOTE ]
this is exactly what happens to me every time i try to play NL, and I'm left asking myself the same question

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer is really, "why not limit?" Most fundamentals of poker, like value betting, were built out of the limit poker model. Nearly all the concepts in Theory of Poker are written around limit poker. Limit is the base of most other forms of poker and if you want to improve your overall hand reading in any game, learning all the games is going to benefit you in the long run. Not only will this give you excellent game selection, your strength in NL Hold'em will improve too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate what a strong NL player (winner at 400NL and below) gains by learning limit? I feel like I should learn limit (specifically short-handed) and then turned off by not learning any thing and spew off. What exactly am I gaining?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you may need to analyze how you are going about making the transition (learning a new game). You have to be careful not to lose your foundation (NL) when headed into a different format. If you take the right steps, there will be no spewing off.

Re: Why Limit?
 

I seem to be coming at things from a different direction. I learned at NL/PL tables. I am trying to improve my statistical game by playing limit. So far it strikes me that the games are VERY different. It seems in limit I am playing the cards more so than the opponent and in NL very much playing the opponent first. I have more difficultiy reading opponents in limit, which seems wrong but is the case. Is my experience different than those going from limit to NL?

Re: Why Limit?
 

Lostwolf, the DeucesCracked guys will be able to explain this much better than I, but let me give you my opinion anyway.

If you're having trouble reading your opponents--and I assume you mean hand-reading--it might be because you aren't as good at it as you think. No offense meant, as most of us aren't as good at it as we think. Learning/playing no limit masks how good you are, because often the winning ability is as much psychological as technical. That playing the player thing.

Limit requires you to make good decisions more often than no limit. Many decisions in no limit don't go beyond the flop. All in on the flop and run out the cards to see who's the winner. Obviously, this never happens in limit. You must learn to play the turn and river to be winners. Learning post-flop skills as required in limit hold'em will only enhance your no limit game.

They really are two different games on every level--beginner to advanced--but the skills required with fixed limit make no limit players better. I don't think the reverse is true.

Many "winning" no limit players are weak at the math part of the game. No winning limit player can be. Short term results in no limit can be far more deceiving than fixed limit.

Finally, the biggest difference is where no limit is more of a strategy game than a tactical game, fixed limit is more of a tactical game than a strategy game. Over the long term, I believe the one who has better tactics will overcome the one who is strictly a strategist. The one who can do both is a really scary player.

CJ

Re: Why Limit?
 

The biggest difference to me seems to be luck. You need more of it to play limit. I can fold 3 orbits of rags in 1/2 NL and it only costs me 9 bucks. 15/30 limit costs $45 per trip. If I flop a set in NL I can push and every once in awhile a flush draw will fold. In LHE I'll stay in with my boat draw and get rivered by straights and flushes.

Re: Why Limit?
 

As a limit and no-limit player, some things said here struck a nerve with me.

[ QUOTE ]
Many decisions in no limit don't go beyond the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must be talking about some small stakes 40BB buy-in or so no-limit game. A true no-limit game will often have all players in the game with 100BB or sometimes a lot more. With 100BB there's plenty of play after the flop given you have a decent stack.

[ QUOTE ]
Limit requires you to make good decisions more often than no limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

While you might have to make more decisions quantitatively, the quality of decisions are much more important in no-limit. Overused, but true mantra: One mistake can cost you your stack in no-limit.

[ QUOTE ]
All in on the flop and run out the cards to see who's the winner. Obviously, this never happens in limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Careful of the use of "never". There are actually many times where a short stack or short buy is almost all-in and the flop/turn/river and even pre-flop decisions are affected by it.

[ QUOTE ]
Many "winning" no limit players are weak at the math part of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually agree with this. You can be successful at no-limit without being great at math. Being a math major and a winning no-limit player, I don't fall in to this bunch.

Garland

Re: Why Limit?
 

from a moneymaking perspective tho, i still dont really see the reason to play limit as your main game. the variance is much larger for comparable winrates, and it is more stressful and harder to multitable (at least for me, but i think it should be true for most ppl because youre making so many more decisions each table). so why play lhe as your main game if you are just grinding for money? unless you just enjoy playin limit much more than nl

Re: Why Limit?
 

well I play limit for two reasons: I need a much smaller bankroll to play limit and I play it much better than I do NL.

With a $1000 bankroll I have 500 bb at 1/2 which is enough to make sure I don't go broke 99% of the time if I can beat it for 2bb/100.

With the same bankroll I could play NL50 if I could beat the game for 8-10 big blinds/100 and still not have 99% probability of not going broke.

Re: Why Limit?
 

Over the last 3 years I have about 300k hands in Limit (most of those being at 30/60) and only about 50k hands in NL (I'm transitioning).

During those years, I've been asking myself the same question, "Why limit?"

The variance in LHE is greater than NL because your player edge vs your opponents in LHE is less.

In stoxtrader's "Well" thread, there were a couple questions and answers that really should turn anyone off from LHE:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stox,

Why do you play much more NLH than LH these days? Do you prefer NLH now or is there more profitable opportunities in NLH these days?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I make more money at NL overall, but I do still play both for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stox, a LHE master/guru, recently just switched to NL and he's already making "more money at NL overall".

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Stox,

First of all thanks for the site. It's been a great help to my game and worth every penny.

I have an odd question that I have been wondering for quite some time.

If you or someone of your caliber were to play at a 3/6 6max LHE game vs a group of winning players, say a group of regular 3/6 2+2 folks, do you think that you would be able to make a profit? If so what would you guess your BB/100 would be?

Just curious since the % of rake is higher than in high limit games if you feel that an elite player would be able to exploit their weaknesses enough to overcome the rake.

Hope my question makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

your question makes plenty sense. I think against 5 good regulars at 3/6 max I would certainly have a tough time overcoming the rake AND turning a good profit. I would guess my winrate in that game would be .1-.6bb/100 assuming a reasonable rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stox admits that he would have a tough time turning a profit at small stakes limit hold'em vs 5 regulars. This obviously has a lot to do with rake, but once again it comes down to the difference in skill level being less in limit. While small stakes limit hold'em players are breaking even/barely making a profit/making most of their money off rakeback, small stakes NL players are doubling up once and making what a small stakes NL player makes in a day, maybe two.

Top LHE players would be lucky to make $1 million a year while top NL players are making $1 million a month. Limit is so bottle-necked. It's like me trying to win a fight with just punches, when I have Mixed Martial Arts/Grappling experience, what's the point?

If you go to a casino, and there are 9 high vpip donks at a NL table, and 9 high vpip donks at LHE table, where do you honestly think you're going to win most of your hands?

So...Why Limit?

Re: Why Limit?
 

As I respond to your post I want anyone reading this to know I'm not responding as an owner of DeucesCracked or a moderator of this forum (in fact I wish this were posted in another forum just to avoid any question of my bias) but as an outraged limit player at your horrible logic, reasoning, arguments, and debating "tactics".

[ QUOTE ]
The variance in LHE is greater than NL because your player edge vs your opponents in LHE is less.

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends a whole heck of a lot on many variables, such as your skill, game selection, and stakes. I don't see why we should accept this generalization.

[ QUOTE ]
Stox, a LHE master/guru, recently just switched to NL and he's already making "more money at NL overall".

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean by "recently"? Stox has been playing NL for years. Also his response was:

[ QUOTE ]
I think I make more money at NL overall, but I do still play both for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

To which you conclude that he has "switched to NL"? My reading comprehension could probably use some work but all he said was he plays both and makes more money at NL (which could be due to any number of factors). And finally if your premise that he "switched to NL" which you basically imply means exclusively NL, than it would be obvious that he "makes more money at NL overall" if he exclusively played it and is a winning player! (obv)

Oh, and what's with the "LHE master/guru" talk - I've never even spoken to Nick but I would assume this would embarrass him. So what are all the other high stakes limit pros? I'm sure Stox is a great limit player but if you think he has some secret guru skills that other high stakes guys don't you are just placing him on a ridiculous pedestal.

[ QUOTE ]
Stox admits that he would have a tough time turning a profit at small stakes limit hold'em vs 5 regulars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again you basically misquote what he said. A table of 5 2+2 quality winning players is not "5 regulars". And when exactly would this super table even occur? You think all the regular 3/6 6 max 2+2ers are just sitting around passing chips back and forth with each other hoping they can break even and collect rakeback? Come on.

[ QUOTE ]
once again it comes down to the difference in skill level being less in limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This conclusion is just a huge leap in logic from the first sentence quoted above. Nobody asked Nick how he would fare at a small stakes NL table of 5 winning 2+2ers either, why would you conclude he would expect to crush that hypothetical game?

[ QUOTE ]
While small stakes limit hold'em players are breaking even/barely making a profit/making most of their money off rakeback

[/ QUOTE ]

Where does this even come from? You are just making these things up as you go aren't you? You're saying if I go over to the small stakes shorthanded forum right now and ask the regular posters for their results for the last few months, I'm going to find on average they are breaking even? If you truly believe this I'd love to test that theory out.

[ QUOTE ]
small stakes NL players are doubling up once and making what a small stakes NL player makes in a day, maybe two.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll assume you meant "small stakes limit player" in the second part of that sentence. What does this sentence even mean? One, the stakes for the limit and NL player would obviously have to be known to have a fair comparison. Two, apparently in NL all I have to do is wait until I double up and then I can quit for the day! I guess NL players never have a losing day or even lose a buyin huh?

[ QUOTE ]
Top LHE players would be lucky to make $1 million a year while top NL players are making $1 million a month. Limit is so bottle-necked.

[/ QUOTE ]

As with the rest of your vague generalities, this would depend on your definition of "top". Which NL players are making a million a month by the way? Highstakesdb.com shows only a couple people up over a million on the year, shouldn't there be a few making 12 million or so according to you? I read a lot of posts on 2+2, including BBV, and I can only think of ONE person who has made a million dollars in a month that was posted about - that would be The Bryce in October at guess what - LIMIT.

[ QUOTE ]
If you go to a casino, and there are 9 high vpip donks at a NL table, and 9 high vpip donks at LHE table, where do you honestly think you're going to win most of your hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

This gibberish pretty much means nothing as far as I can read and understand, but if the other "donks" at the table all have a high vpip you are probably going to be playing pretty tight to exploit that. And who cares where I win the most hands? I'm trying to win the most MONEY.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Why Limit?
 

Wow DD just got unleashed.

I was going to respond to that poster but it seems like he covered pretty much everything I was going to say and then some, so I'll offer up my .02 on the the topic.

I can't remember which 2+2 author said it, maybe Ed Miller but I don't wanna misquote anyone.

Anyway, they said that the profitability in NL vs Limit favor NL at the lower stakes but eventually inverse as you go up in stakes.

They didn't expound upon it but I personally think this is because NL is about forcing your opponent to make a few big mistakes in a session, whereas Limit profitability derives from forcing your opponents to make a lot of little mistakes. As you move up in stakes the overall skill of your opponent goes up as well. It becomes harder as you move up to goad opponents into making these big mistakes, and it requires more overall skill to convince them to do so.

That being said why do I play Limit as a small stakes player? Because that's where my head is at. I've put a lot of time into my limit game and I think that it is a little bit more profitable for ME to play my Limit game than to play NL while learning the ins and outs of the game.

You are going to want to learn limit eventually, and not just limit Hold'Em. Learn every game, pick one that works for you and run with it a while. When you get tired of that pick up a different one and learn that one while playing. It's amazing how much stuff crosses over, and how many "pitfalls" of each particular game you avoid by having just played a different one. That, at least for me, is one of the keys for keeping poker both fun AND profitable.

Re: Why Limit?
 

Limit sucks, I hate it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Since Nov 1st:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...v1-Present.jpg

Re: Why Limit?
 

So...Why ever post again?

-DeathDonkey

Real mature.

Re: Why Limit?
 

Top mid-stakes limit players make 1-2BB/100. Top NL mid-stakes players make 3-5PTBB/100. If you divide by session stdev, it works out to a very similar ratio.

The distribution of NL "returns" has fatter tails than limit, so in the short-run one can experience larger swings (relative to expected return) in NL than limit. This works for some people, doesn't for others. So "why limit" might just be personal preference.

Where the discussion gets interesting is high stakes. If I was a very good player at a table full of pretty good players, I'd rather be playing NL. That is probably what Stox was trying to say. But there is a certain unproveability to that statement because who knows who is good and who is very good? The fat tails of NL can make anyone look great for a while.

Given your history in limit, what winrate do you expect to achieve in NL that justifies a switch? Is that winrate feasible? These are the questions you'd need to ask.

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So...Why ever post again?

-DeathDonkey

Real mature.

[/ QUOTE ]

DD is from the old school 2p2 where you weren't good unless you got flamed. I have said over and over, if I wasn't constantly flamed by Clarkmeister, majorkong, El Diablo and others, I would have never gotten better at poker and if I wasn't able to take it, I would have never had a chance!

Re: Why Limit?
 

Thanks for trying to be diplomatic Joe, but I was wrong to say that. Half because its just unnecessary and unproductive - I was just wound up from the post and typing out a long response and got uncharacteristically (I hope) out of line. I apologize. And the other half is it lets him ignore all the valid points I made and focus on that part [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

Re: Why Limit?
 

There are limit bots out there that are crushing high stakes limit. The only bots out now for NL are shortstack bots for microlimits. To me, that says a lot about the game of limit compared to NL.

Re: Why Limit?
 

Why Limit?

Read this thread. Read it 15 times. See what it actually says. That's why limit.

And if you can't see what this thread actually says then who cares, because you won't win in the long run anyway.

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are limit bots out there that are crushing high stakes limit. The only bots out now for NL are shortstack bots for microlimits. To me, that says a lot about the game of limit compared to NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

they are beating (not crushing) bad limit players heads up (there isnt a good full ring bot that is known about yet that plays high stakes games). Most good players can beat the bots, there are guys in this forum that actually hunt them down because they are easy pray.

back on topic - Why limit? Because if you ever want to become a good no limit player you need to play a lot of hands in a lot of tough situations, limit poker helps prepare you for that thought process. There are only a small handfull of great NL players who did not have a limit poker background first.Its a natural progression, in general you will only find the guys who rise to the cream of the crop as NL players (such as Aba) were limit players first.

Re: Why Limit?
 

TT wins 2p2 superlative "person i most want to be friends with based on avatar". bullitt ftw.

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
TT wins 2p2 superlative "person i most want to be friends with based on avatar". bullitt ftw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve McQueen taught me how to be a real man, I think lots of 2+2'ers can learn some lessons by watching Bullitt, The Great Escape, Papillon, and The Thomas Crown Affair.

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are limit bots out there that are crushing high stakes limit. The only bots out now for NL are shortstack bots for microlimits. To me, that says a lot about the game of limit compared to NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where are these bots? What sites? Online-names? Where did you get this information?

What does it say about limit? Care to expand?

Re: Why Limit?
 

it's more fun!

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's more fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

ya know thats a fantastic argument. Full ring Limit is an action game, full ring NL is a waiting game.

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's more fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

ya know thats a fantastic argument. Full ring Limit is an action game, full ring NL is a waiting game.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is action junkie mania on the norm. Although the limit games online are back but I have to say, I love LA. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are limit bots out there that are crushing high stakes limit. The only bots out now for NL are shortstack bots for microlimits. To me, that says a lot about the game of limit compared to NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct about there being bots online. Bots exist in both Limit and No-Limit hold'em. In the last year sites have done more in Anti-Bot technology and actually banning accounts and seizing money and then redistributing it the "victims" then any other year to date. As a bot hunter there are many ways to detect bots that I really can’t go into here. Limit hold'em Heads Up bots though are what you’re referring to when it comes to bots crushing high stakes. They are beatable for a small amount in the long run but what makes these bots bad is they take the fishes money. The bots exist in Limit HU more then any other form of poker because there are less variables and only one other opponent to play which the bot does very well with adapting against. If you read the internet forum right now another botter was just caught with 3 accounts botting FTP at stakes of 30-60 to 100-200 and all money was seized and so forth. Right now it is very dangerous to bot on any site because the sites are really starting to see how this could effect there business and profitability in the future. Limit hold'em is an action game where there are always fish like myself plentiful in most ring games anywhere poker is played. It is true that NL is on fire right now but personally for me NL is so so boring and I like to be able to have fun while playing poker. So I like to play almost every hand and take the "any 2 cards can win approach" when playing LIVE because I like the game. I have friends that play both games NL and Limit and the consensus is there is more money right now to be made in low stakes and medium stakes limit then in NL limit right now online. For LIVE I would say for lower stakes that NL might be a better option. I love limit and it’s why I am about to be a proud owner of a new home, thanks to limit hold'em.

-Crazy Mike

Re: Why Limit?
 

wooooo go deathdonkey!

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
wooooo go deathdonkey!

[/ QUOTE ]

He finally goes from Taco to C=8

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are limit bots out there that are crushing high stakes limit. The only bots out now for NL are shortstack bots for microlimits. To me, that says a lot about the game of limit compared to NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

As someone who has had a little bit of experience with the programming of a poker bot (not one that will ever used on a poker site, or have the ability to do so) I can add a little insight into this as well.

The fact that there are bots winning (not crushing) at High Stakes Limit games but not so many winning NL bots is because of inherent laziness of programmers and lack of efficient material to build upon.

Bot programmers are just that...programmers. That's what they have spent their time learning to do. A bot programmer doesn't necessarily want to learn the intricacies of poker play, they want to teach a computer to do it for them. Instead of learning for themselves the ins and outs of a certain type of poker, they draw upon available RELIABLE resources, learn the basics and the math involved and let the bot figure out the rest. There is a world of knowledge written about limit poker which has been there for quite some time. It hasn't been until recently that the ins and outs of NL poker have been described, in detail, in an easy to read and readily available at any bookstore format.

Lack of innovation is another reason for this phenomena. Most of "bots" out there are shells that one buys and then scripts his or her own strategy into, or they laughably use the "out of the box" bot that is break even at full ring low-limit tables at best. Even those that do "innovate" see that it is a lot easier to program a line of code each for responses to a "Fold" or "Raise" of one betting increment, than it is to program exact bet increments, and responses to a "Raise of 1 betting increment", "Raise of 2 increments" etc. It's just been easier so far.

It's possible for the most profitable bots to be NL bots, simply because they could in theory keep a history of from the very first hand you played together and call upon relevant HH's based on your current play. They could also, again theoretically, do complicated bet sizing that would force more play mistakes from opponents. The only reason they aren't around is because the resources weren't there.
Keep a lookout for these guys in the coming years unfortunately.

Re: Why Limit?
 

Limit is killing me, I can't take this anymore, the variance is brutal! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

http://www.joetall.com/Nov1st2khands.jpg

Re: Why Limit?
 

So joe within like 2 weeks you have run @ 14.4bb/100, the sox win the ws, the pats basically have superbowl on lock (unless somebody goes "celtic pride" on them - don't tell me you don't own that on DVD), and KG and the gang has debuted.

It's all downhill from here. Sorry.

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So joe within like 2 weeks you have run @ 14.4bb/100, the sox win the ws, the pats basically have superbowl on lock (unless somebody goes "celtic pride" on them - don't tell me you don't own that on DVD), and KG and the gang has debuted.

It's all downhill from here. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe's baby is on the way next month, I'd say its all uphill IMHO.

Re: Why Limit?
 

TT, play vs bot MightyLu 30/60 HU on UB. Stuckinpgh refuses to play against the UB bots 30/60 HU, and he plays HU higher than that. Crazy Mike has lost a lot of money vs these bots trying to beat them. They're not that easy.

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TT wins 2p2 superlative "person i most want to be friends with based on avatar". bullitt ftw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve McQueen taught me how to be a real man, I think lots of 2+2'ers can learn some lessons by watching Bullitt, The Great Escape, Papillon, and The Thomas Crown Affair.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT, I am ashamed of you. How could you not mention The Magnificent Seven

Re: Why Limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TT wins 2p2 superlative "person i most want to be friends with based on avatar". bullitt ftw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve McQueen taught me how to be a real man, I think lots of 2+2'ers can learn some lessons by watching Bullitt, The Great Escape, Papillon, and The Thomas Crown Affair.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT, I am ashamed of you. How could you not mention The Magnificent Seven

[/ QUOTE ]

it wasn't as Magnificent, this guy stole the show.

PS: someone please tell Donkey who these guys are, he needs to get out to see more classic cinema
http://www.celebrity-pictures-world....rynner-005.jpg