Another question on player preferences.
 

How many of you have played in a card room that uses a betting line? Do you prefer it, or the forward motion rule?

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

The first time I played poker in a casino there was a betting line, I remember very vividly that a player reached out over the line with chips and tapped the table like a check. He was required to bet (this was a limit game but it might have been spread limit 1-4-8-8). At the time I felt like the line was good thing, I thought I was being protected from players doing dishonest things (like pretend to bet but actually check).

Over time I have learned to despise the lines. They become the tools of nits. "That chip didn't go over the line" or people playing games pushing their chips up to the line but not going over. I happened to be at Palace Station on the morning that they had just put in new felts with the betting lines (I'm not a regular there but picked this up from the converstaion) before the game got started the local nits were actually debating whether a chip had to cross the inside plane of the line or the outside plane of the line before it was a bet.

Today I would prefer that there not be a betting line.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

Here in Vegas I have played both.
It seems in the limit games the bet line did not really make a difference BUT in no-limit the bet line does help. I guess given a one or the other choice I would take the bet line. It does cut down on the DID HE OR DID HE NOT use forward motion.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

Like psandman said, I think that betting lines become a tool that nits and angle shooters exploit. I prefer the forward motion rule.

I always just verbalize what I am doing. It removes all doubt.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

We've had this discussion many times in the past. I'm pretty sure the consensus is that having the line is good (to help the dealers handle short-armed players), but attaching rules to the line is bad.

Of course, I might be thinking that was the consensus because it's how I feel about the matter personally...

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

Having a line is good because the bets are out there where you can see them and it is easier on the dealer not having to reach as far.

Enforceing the line sucks for all the reasons stated previously and I remeber playing with an old guy that never made a betting line violation without the NUTS.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

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We've had this discussion many times in the past. I'm pretty sure the consensus is that having the line is good (to help the dealers handle short-armed players), but attaching rules to the line is bad.

Of course, I might be thinking that was the consensus because it's how I feel about the matter personally...

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I tend to disagree with this. When players see a line they tend to associate rules with it. A player who sees a betting line, but then doesn't see it enforced feels that rules are being broken.

If you are concerned with dealers not being able to reach bets perhaps a design on the felt (such as the casino logo in various spots on the table) could be used to act as a landmark "please push that past the logo so that i can reach it"

I have a long wingspan so i don't have this problem.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

I am not a fan of the betting line, I much rather prefer competent dealers. If there is a case where they were not prevalent perhaps I would push for the betting line.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

I don't hate the line so much as the nazi's who treat it like it's magic. I have made obvious checking motions (tapping the table with my knuckles, palm up holding the chips I was shuffling) that barely crossed the line and been forced to bet by overzealous dealers in a tournament.

One dealer even thought it was a game, and smugly told the floor 5 mins later (while she was still dealing my table) that she would probably catch me again before the tournament is over.

I won that tourney and explained to the floor afterwards that I wasn't tipping because of her attitude. No love for dealers who are 'out to get me'.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

As long as the line (and the area covered by it) is not large, then it does not bother me.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

I dislike the betting line. There are people who have difficulty even reaching it (the old, short, infirm) and there are just as many arguments w/ the betting line as without.

Whatever you do don't do what Casino Arizona has done: Install betting lines that are not betting lines. When they put them in a few years ago I asked a floor person why they were installing betting lines. She answered that they weren't sure if they would use them as betting lines. Well, they are not betting lines but when out-of-towners visit many think they are betting lines thus making things ridiculous sometimes.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

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Whatever you do don't do what Casino Arizona has done: Install betting lines that are not betting lines.

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I like to view these as "don't be a douche, put your bets in where the dealer can reach them" line. There's probably some OSHA thing associated with it, too. I like them.

I run a home game with several tables and people coming from various levels of poker experience. We have no lines. People cut out chips in front of their cards sometimes, and even occasionally leave them sitting there why thinking about action. In two years it has not been a problem for people to rub two brain cells together to either: understand through body language and facial expression and hand movement; or simply ask what the other player is doing.

I work in a room with the line, but it's not an official betting line. Again, so far there has been no confusion. Other regional rooms use it as a line, but those who travel between casinos don't seem confused. I, as a dealer, run my game well. I understand and respect the game of poker. I can tell when others may be confused by their perceived ambiguity and I nip situations before they occur.

Encourage those who play in your room to announce all action and train your dealers to run the game, and it will never matter. But put in the line so your dealers have something to point to for the a-hole customers, and support your dealers when they insist a-hole players in the outlying seats push their bets forward. I think using the line as a guide is good, but giving it magical properties leads to nittitude of extreme proportions.

WHATEVER you do, DO NOT have the air space above the line be included in whatever. I've been in places that ruled (in limit) that if you had enough chips in your hand for a raise, it's a raise, regardless of how many you released. I can understand how these silly policies came into being, but there are other, saner solutions.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

I like a betting line as an unambiguous demarcation. I am also okay with a betting line being loosely enforced, with the idea that initial violations get warnings and that habitual violators get strictly enforced. I don't mind if dealers are a bit more lenient toward people like the elderly if they are making errors in good faith. I do like it as a tool which dealers can selectively enforce a bit stronger against [censored] players to keep them in line.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

I can go either way on the line. Not having it creates one set of potetial problems. Having it creates a different set. It doesn't really solve anything.

As for having it but not enforcing it. Or loosely enforcing it....hmmmm. Need to think some more about it, but my intial thoughts are this just opens up more problems. It's there but it's not...??

If you're going to spend some time, effort and money why not just put it into additional training for the dealers on the current house rules. Re-enforce attention to detail and player intent, with some focus on controlling the action.

Seems to me most of these problems occur due to other players acting too quickly or impatience. Speed is one thing, but without accuracy, everyone will suffer. Pfapfap makes some very good points about what he expects from his customers when he deals.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

I don't really care either way. For a while The Grand in Tunica used it but then suddenly stopped.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

A story from personal experience as why I f'in HATE HATE HATE betting lines. They are designed to make you bet what you didn't want to and not allow you to bet what you wanted to.

I'm playing at GVR and I'm in the 1 seat on a NL game. I announce "bet 35" and then reach over the line and the dealer says "everything in your hand is now a bet". Ok, I'm like...wtf just happened. I ask for a floor 3 times before the dealer just finally huffs at me and calls. The floor says that the "line overules verbal even if the verbal is made before the chips go over the line in my hand". I racked up and have never set foot in the place again.

This BS of "everything in your hand" is a bet stuff is retarded. Most all poker players take out a bunch a then cut /drop what we want to bet. I have no problem with making the player make the minimum action, whether it be a bet of at least the minimum or a call.

Another problem I have is when a player throws say 7 or 8 chips out and a few of them don't clear the line or even land on it. Now there are arguments over how many actually are in play. WTF AGAIN. The player threw them out there,why are they not a bet when it CLEARLY is a bet??? And yes, it's clear they are betting them, it's not some nit uber angle shooter bs angle to test the dealer and players.

In our house we have a line, and it's stricly for courtesy for the dealers to have the players put them chips outwards so we can reach. (The CM thought it'd be a nice design without actually knowing what the lines on poker tables were, and that's another story). Any chips released in front (towards the dealer) of your cards are in play is the rule. And this is also the rule I favor as well as we try to explain it to players when they sit at the table.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

I was angle shot once because I pushed a stack in and the top part of it fell backwards behind the line. I do not like the line, especially if it is an arms reach away.

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

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As for having it but not enforcing it. Or loosely enforcing it....hmmmm. Need to think some more about it, but my intial thoughts are this just opens up more problems. It's there but it's not...??


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My thoughts are that there are some rules which are going to be hell if enforced in a nitty fashion, but which address legitimate concerns. I'd compare it to speed limits on the highway. I think that there definitely should be a speed limit of some sorts (some may disagree), but I think a zero-tolerance enforcement policy would be a bad idea.

When I say it should be loosely enforced, I mean that all offenses should definitely be acknowledged, but violators should be given a warning and not forced bet on the first occasion and maybe future occasions. Problem players and angle shooters should get fewer warnings.

Of course we could just make it easier and get rid of no limit, which seems like the cause of most controversies. Well, I can dream, can't I?

Re: Another question on player preferences.
 

You have nits and angle-shooters whether there are betting lines or not, so this line of reasoning is a non-issue to me.

I like the betting lines because my vision is not what it once was and the bet lines force the end of the table players to push their chips out further. This also helps the dealers with short arms and/or large breasts reach the chips.