Overplaying a 3-bet pot
 

I believe Killian said in the PSA thread that we should post some more hands that we played well and try to pick apart villain's play, rather than posting lots of "ZOMG I was coolered!" hands.

This is a pretty simple hand that my girlfriend played (I'm coaching her, thus the stakes) that illustrates something I see a lot of players with nittish/taggy stats do: they adjust very poorly to villains who 3-bet a lot.

Villain here is a 15/6 fish. There's a little history. The very first time he raised OTB, we 3-bet from the SB with 33 (this was before the hud was up [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). He min-4bet with about 110BB effective stacks left (after the min 4-bet). We called and c/f the JTQ flop.

Later in a BoB, he raised from the SB, we 3-bet with QQ, he called. The flop came 7TJ, he c/ced the flop with AJ, the turn checked through, and he c/ced the river when it blanked.

We've been 3-betting. A LOT. Not so much this player, because he's opening range is pretty tight, but everyone else for sure.

Then this hand happened.

Ultimate Bet - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

<font color="black">Hero (SB): $77.20</font>
BB: $50
UTG: $19
MP: $72.70
CO: $64
BTN: $49.75

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Khttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $5.75</font>, BB folds, BTN calls $4

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($12) 2http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 6http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif Thttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $36</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $64</font>, BTN calls all-in for $8
Uncalled bet of $20 returned to Hero

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($100) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

<font color="black">River:</font> ($100) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $100 ($3 Rake)

BTN had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Thttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (a pair of tens) and LOST (-$49.75)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Khttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (three kings) and WON (+$47.25)

Some morals of the story:

1) When someone's 3-betting light, your implied odds are low. You should be folding more, 4-betting a little more and calling a lot less. ATo is definately one of those hands you should 4-bet or fold. I guess there's some merit in deciding to call with the intention of making a move on some flops, but I'd rather do that with pocket pairs, since they can flop sets.

2) It's not a good idea to bluff with TPTK in a 3-bet pot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Villain should be aware here that when he is ahead, he is usually way ahead (if I have an unimproved Ace, or a pair &lt; T), and when he is behind he is usually way behind. Also note that his push leaves him in a very awkward turn spot if I just call, so there isn't much point in keeping his last $8 the way he did.


This example will probably seem pretty trivial to most of the regs, but I see stuff like this at the $200 tables all the time nowadays too. Online poker has changed a bit as all the tables are full of guys with VPIPs &lt; 20, but the game's still profitable as long as they keep making plays like this one...

Re: Overplaying a 3-bet pot
 

Given villan's image, I don't mind his shove with AT.

Yes, you'll be behind sometimes. But given a really [censored] image you'll get called on a looser range (ala Greg's thread today).

Maybe this application doesnt work here at 50nl. But I can definitely see felting this hand at times.

Re: Overplaying a 3-bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given villan's image, I don't mind his shove with AT.

Yes, you'll be behind sometimes. But given a really [censored] image you'll get called on a looser range (ala Greg's thread today).

Maybe this application doesnt work here at 50nl. But I can definitely see felting this hand at times.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about Villain's image makes this shove good? More specifically, what about his (or my) image makes his preflop call OK?

To me this seemed like the classic "I'm sick of this LAG so I'm going to make a stand" push. Which usually ends badly.

Re: Overplaying a 3-bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given villan's image, I don't mind his shove with AT.

Yes, you'll be behind sometimes. But given a really [censored] image you'll get called on a looser range (ala Greg's thread today).

Maybe this application doesnt work here at 50nl. But I can definitely see felting this hand at times.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about Villain's image makes this shove good? More specifically, what about his (or my) image makes his preflop call OK?

To me this seemed like the classic "I'm sick of this LAG so I'm going to make a stand" push. Which usually ends badly.

[/ QUOTE ]
you'll get called by a wider range of hands. yes, that includes stuff like 88 and whatever, hands that we crush. soemtimes you'll see others making this move with AK or whatever because they are so frustrated.

Re: Overplaying a 3-bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given villan's image, I don't mind his shove with AT.

Yes, you'll be behind sometimes. But given a really [censored] image you'll get called on a looser range (ala Greg's thread today).

Maybe this application doesnt work here at 50nl. But I can definitely see felting this hand at times.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about Villain's image makes this shove good? More specifically, what about his (or my) image makes his preflop call OK?

To me this seemed like the classic "I'm sick of this LAG so I'm going to make a stand" push. Which usually ends badly.

[/ QUOTE ]
you'll get called by a wider range of hands. yes, that includes stuff like 88 and whatever, hands that we crush. soemtimes you'll see others making this move with AK or whatever because they are so frustrated.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my point. Making this move because you are frustrated is pretty bad.

If I was villain here, I'd rather call 3 streets than push the flop.

Re: Overplaying a 3-bet pot
 

I don't mind villians preflop call, and I don't mind a push on the flop, however when you combine them you get a bad play. Villian's pre-flop play doesn't work optimally with his post flop play.

Calling pre-flop is fine because he has position, and if he has a read it's even better. He's against a loose 3 bettor and has a tight image. It should be profitable to sometimes call here and make a play on good flops.

Where he goes wrong is that he makes a play on a flop that he hit. This kills the action from hero's wide range. It would be much better to simply call down 3 streets. The same money goes into the pot, but he lets worse hands bluff, and worse hands catch up to make 1-pair while he makes 2 pair.

Re: Overplaying a 3-bet pot
 

Easy c/c by villan on probably all streets, or atleast the flop anyhow.

Turn depends on cards, but raising just stops hero bluffing his stack off.

Re: Overplaying a 3-bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) When someone's 3-betting light, your implied odds are low. You should be folding more, 4-betting a little more and calling a lot less. ATo is definately one of those hands you should 4-bet or fold. I guess there's some merit in deciding to call with the intention of making a move on some flops, but I'd rather do that with pocket pairs, since they can flop sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with the intention of calling light with pocket pairs in a reraised pot because they can flop sets. First because it suggests that you're getting the odds to play for set value which is wrong. However, you were obviously suggesting that inorder to offset your low chance of hitting a set that you should try and steal the flop when you miss.
I disagree with your point here.

If you miss your set on the flop and then push over a Villain's continuation bet than you're obviously turning your hand into a bluff which is fine. However, the times when your bluff gets called than your almost surely drawing to 2-outs and have low equity. On the other hand, if you call preflop with a hand like AK or AQ and push on a flop that misses you and get called, you can often be drawing upto as many as 6 outs and thus have lots more equity when alot of money gets in on the flop.