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-   -   $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=541565)

psyduck 11-08-2007 06:37 PM

$10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
Background: Danny Wong has been limp/calling a ridiculous range of hands preflop. He has shown down 83s to a button raise (he flats in big blind) and is literally limping into like 30% of pots preflop and calling with like 90% of his limping range when there's a raise.

Blinds 100/200 effective stacks like 10k, EP old guy looseish/passive limps and I make it 800 with 88 in MP. CO who has been calling a lot of my raises flats, Danny Wong flats in SB, old guy flats from UTG or whatever.

Flop T 6 4 rainbow. Check check, I bet out 1450, CO folds, Danny Wong eyes my stack, then looks at UTG who looks like he's about to fold, and then calls after about a minute or whatever. UTG folds.

Turn J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] putting a flush draw out. He pauses and checks, I check behind after about 45 seconds.

River pairs the 4 and is offsuit. He leads 1500.


Thoughts? Check-fold flop? What about river? Danny Wong is ridiculously hard to play against postflop but he leaks way way way way too much preflop. Thoughts on double barrelling, and thoughts on bluffing the river once he block-bets like 1/4 pot or whatever?

zizazziza 11-08-2007 07:10 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
I think i double barrel (shove?) if you think that he floats this often with crap hands. As played, I think you need to call his river bet.

Todd Terry 11-08-2007 08:07 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
C-bet is fine, the board is pretty damn good for 88, I'd usually take a stab at it. Against players who like to hang around with crap, frequent double barreling is a good idea IMO.

Here, your hand could easily be good on the turn and isn't getting called by worse (or is it?, I don't know if your OP covers this), so checking is obviously OK.

As played, you have to call the river, bets this small aren't even worth thinking about most of the time. Checking behind the turn and then raising the river is a tough sell, unless you've been seen checking behind monsters in position on the turn prior to this hand. Not to mention you have no clue what he has, so you could be just donating a lot of chips by raising.

psyduck 11-08-2007 08:18 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
If you call with 88, do you also call with AK (ace-high)? From Danny Wong's perspective, is a 1/3 river bet bluff ever profitable after I've shown considerable flop strength by c-betting into 3 people?

Just things I was thinking about during the hand...


edit: I also didn't expect Danny to peel with 6x or 4x on the flop since again I was c-betting into multiple people and he is OOP. I also can't see him having total air because that would be an OOP float on a dry board etc etc which seems kinda insane!

Todd Terry 11-08-2007 08:26 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
The flop is really garbage, I see people c-bet with AK all the time on flops like that, some live players c-bet with AK/AQ regardless of board texture or number of players, I don't know how many hands you'd played against him for him to be able to know with certainty that you had better than AK/AQ when you c-bet the flop. Plus, honestly I'd be willing to burn the chips to see what he had even if I thought the chance of my hand being good was remote, but that's me.

Bond18 11-08-2007 09:27 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
Psyduck, given the read/information "he's not calling flop with 6x/4x....can't see him having total air"

That doesn't leave much we beat outside 77 or like 75. 75 bets bigger cause it wants you out. So i think only 77 plays like this, and it still might check down to you and let you bluff. So fold.

shaniac 11-08-2007 11:36 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
i agree with todd...almost trivial call. Probably a call with AK, too.

Bond18 11-08-2007 11:59 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
I don't get it, given the information psyduck provided, how's this trivial?

shaniac 11-09-2007 12:27 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it, given the information psyduck provided, how's this trivial?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess not trivial, but semi automatic...it's a pretty small bet and you'll catch him with air often enough to make it profitable. If not, like Todd said, it's worth it for the information.

g-p 11-09-2007 02:06 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
BET TURN, cmon

Todd Terry 11-09-2007 10:55 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it, given the information psyduck provided, how's this trivial?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess not trivial, but semi automatic...it's a pretty small bet and you'll catch him with air often enough to make it profitable. If not, like Todd said, it's worth it for the information.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 5.1:1, you have to be good just 15% of the time for it to be +cEV -- in that spot, I'll call if I have any showdown value whatsoever, always. People who love to play random crap almost never fold a pair on the flop to a c-bet, especially one that was less than 1/2 the pot, so I think he could have 77, any 6, 55, possibly even 33-22. The river bet appears to be an obvious blocking bet, which means he doesn't like his hand very much and doesn't want to call a bet of 4-5K, so I think there's actually a pretty good chance we're good here. The description of the flop action seems like he called only after he saw the other guy was folding, which could mean he was pretty weak. Plus, there's an epidemic of microbet bluffing going on in live tourneys, I don't know if it has infected Mr. Wong, but it's an additional reason to call because he could show up here with 75, 53.

ianisakson 11-09-2007 01:38 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
I think a call is good, his range looks a lot like 99-77, 55. You can't really put him on air after your c-bet into a 3 way flop and he calls OOP. He either has that small pair or T9, T8 with a pretty small chance of the random air.

WarDekar 11-09-2007 01:42 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think a call is good, his range looks a lot like 99-77, 55. You can't really put him on air after your c-bet into a 3 way flop and he calls OOP. He either has that small pair or T9, T8 with a pretty small chance of the random air.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh... Bluff raise FTW?


I wrote up something for this last night but was drunk and apparently forgot to post it. I feel like this is a spot you need to decide what he's betting this thin with - a lot of times players will do this as a value-bet and fold to any raise, in which case, bluff raise FTW?


Look at it this way, say he's bluffing the required 15% or w/e for you to call. OK great but what's the other 85% of his range? Weak ass hands that he's not calling a raise with, so why take the pot 15% of the time if you can take it 100% of the time?


FTR I'm not saying you should def. bluff raise here, but if his range is as quoted above you should be.

I really don't see myself folding here so it's either call or bluff raise depending on opponent.

celticslegend 11-09-2007 03:01 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
Bluff raising is a horrible idea imo, as you are repping basically nothing and from what I hear about Danny Wong, while he is far too loose he is a good hand reader and a tough player, so I think he will pick you off here a ton. I think this is really close and it really depends a lot on Danny Wong, I feel like you should really never be good here if he is a good player like everyone says he is, but 5-1 odds are tough to pass up. I would probably make a crying call just for info and the chance that he may be doing something dumb, but I don't think folding or calling can either be really bad in this spot, I feel like raising is a really bad idea.

edit: now that I think about it I think folding is better than calling, I think he has 10x here almost always, pretty much the only hand that makes sense imo.

ianisakson 11-09-2007 03:14 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
this is a good river to bluff raise, but as celtic mentioned if he is a sicko and a good hand reader he'll pick you off once in a while. His bet does look 100% like he's going to fold to a raise.

celticslegend 11-09-2007 03:29 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
[ QUOTE ]
this is a good river to bluff raise, but as celtic mentioned if he is a sicko and a good hand reader he'll pick you off once in a while. His bet does look 100% like he's going to fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

how is this a good river to bluff raise? what hand is hero supposed to show up with a4? Maybe this is a good sized river bet to raise but it is certainly not a good river card to raise.

WarDekar 11-09-2007 03:35 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
We could be raising a ton of hands for value here as well, no?

WarDekar 11-09-2007 03:46 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
How are you playing QQ+?


Or even Js

And what the hell does he have that calls PF and check/calls flop, then mini-bets river that can withstand a raise, and the line we took to get there?

As I said I don't know him or have any kind of read, and this isn't an online donkament, but I love bluff-raising rivers if I have a read someone is trying to value-bet a medium strength hand and is capable of bet/folding river.

Diamond Lie 11-09-2007 04:42 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
Pretty sure we arent checking the turn with QQ+ lol

LerkEr 11-09-2007 05:00 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
D BARREL THAT [censored]

MaverickUSC 11-09-2007 09:43 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
Danny Wong is such a pain in the ass to play against. This hand makes my head hurt. Danny's range is huge here, you gotta be just calling. He's making this bet with a monster or with air and a wide range in between. Sometimes he's folding to a "bluff raise", sometimes he's behind and your bluff raise is actually a value raise, sometimes he's gonna read your hand and call you with T9, and sometimes he'll show up here with TT.

But, faaak. It's hard for me to find a range of his hands that we beat more than 5.1-1 times. But he knows that. But. Arrrrrrrrgh.

Devo

jlocdog 11-10-2007 01:21 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
[ QUOTE ]
BET TURN, cmon

[/ QUOTE ]

....and quoting's stupid but seriously.

g-p 11-10-2007 03:20 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BET TURN, cmon

[/ QUOTE ]

....and quoting's stupid but seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]
i guess you are saying my advice sucks but i guarantee you i know 1000 times more than you about situations like this

jlocdog 11-10-2007 03:35 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
Not what I was saying at all. I agree with your advice 100%.

I just think quoting on these boards has gotten a little out of hand is all. You need to mellow out there chappy...

celticslegend 11-10-2007 04:14 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
[ QUOTE ]
He's making this bet with a monster or with air and a wide range in between.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming that Danny Wong is the good, thinking player that I have heard he is he really should have air here a very very small percentage of the time if ever (certainly not 15 percent of the time), OP raised preflop and bet into 5 people, I'm sure Danny knows that more often than not OP is going to at least have a pair, Danny also knows that most people will not fold a pair to this sized river bet so him showing up with air here seems highly unlikely. Not to mention that although he may be crazy and very creative I doubt he is going to try some crazy float here in a 5 way pot so there are really very few "air" hands that he can have, 57 or a 6 being the only two that I can really come up with, and playing either of those hands in this way is very poor imo. The most likely scenario imo is that Danny holds some sort of 10 and has put OP on something like 77-99 and believes that this sized bet will get the most value out of these hands.


psyduck 11-10-2007 05:44 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
westmenlo, that was EXACTLY the reasoning I had at the time and I folded my hand on the river despite getting 5:1.

FWIW I think I definitely should have double barreled on the turn though to get him off Tx and 75, 53 type hands (yes, 75 and 53 are both in his preflop range) since he has to be deathly afraid of an overpair at this point and perhaps the J hits me sometimes as well. I mean sure, he can have bottom or middle set but a naked pair is much more likely than either of those.

And Danny Wong is also good enough to look me up with Tx on the river if I jam over his tiny tiny bet because most people *would* probably bet the turn with an overpair, and if they check for pot control they are not jamming on the river. I represent nothing by shoving river.

edit: also, I gave consideration to the chance that he was betting a 6x on the end hoping to get called by ace-high or whatever, but there's no way he peels that on the flop out of position, not closing the action when I c-bet into *three* people when there's an overcard showing.

HoosierAlum 11-10-2007 07:13 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
Fold>>>>>>>>>>shove& gt;>call

HoosierAlum 11-10-2007 07:14 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
Bet the turn also

g-p 11-10-2007 09:06 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
[ QUOTE ]
Not what I was saying at all. I agree with your advice 100%.

I just think quoting on these boards has gotten a little out of hand is all. You need to mellow out there chappy...

[/ QUOTE ]
sorry bud was pretty drunk when i made that, no hard feelings!!

jlocdog 11-10-2007 01:00 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
No problem. You a good poster/player. I probably didn't need to make that comment either, but it is true. I rarely if ever just quote someones post as my own. If that is the case, I usually just refrain from posting since what needs to be said was said. But in this thread, you were the only one who said bet the turn and I thought that was dead on and getting overlooked. So I quoted....

furfur 11-10-2007 07:44 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
flop bet is so-so given # of opponents and a 10 flopping but u do want to see where u stand. after checking turn, u invite him to bet river and might call just to stop him from doing this later plus u may be ahead.

furfur 11-10-2007 07:47 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
that's a good line

furfur 11-10-2007 07:51 PM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
y bet turn...to keep our range wide?

NYWalker 11-11-2007 01:18 AM

Re: $10k Foxwoods - Small underpair multiway hand vs Danny Wong
 
[ QUOTE ]
Background: Danny Wong has been limp/calling a ridiculous range of hands preflop. He has shown down 83s to a button raise (he flats in big blind) and is literally limping into like 30% of pots preflop and calling with like 90% of his limping range when there's a raise.

Blinds 100/200 effective stacks like 10k, EP old guy looseish/passive limps and I make it 800 with 88 in MP. CO who has been calling a lot of my raises flats, Danny Wong flats in SB, old guy flats from UTG or whatever.

Flop T 6 4 rainbow. Check check, I bet out 1450, CO folds, Danny Wong eyes my stack, then looks at UTG who looks like he's about to fold, and then calls after about a minute or whatever. UTG folds.

Turn J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] putting a flush draw out. He pauses and checks, I check behind after about 45 seconds.

River pairs the 4 and is offsuit. He leads 1500.


Thoughts? Check-fold flop? What about river? Danny Wong is ridiculously hard to play against postflop but he leaks way way way way too much preflop. Thoughts on double barrelling, and thoughts on bluffing the river once he block-bets like 1/4 pot or whatever?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read other's replies, so I don't know how everyone else's thinking about this hand. But, personally, I played with Danny Wong many times in HU pots. When stack is deep, he makes loose pf calls and is a station on the flop *as long as* he has a piece on the board. In such spot, the stronger you bet, the more he thinks you are bluffing... which means, when you flopped monster hands against him, he pays you off. But when you bluff, he's a station. When he's shadow, he plays very tight in all spots.

For this hand, I believe he has a T and he knows it's good at the river. You should fold the river. Fold the river here will give you better chance to stack off him next time when you are sure you have him because he'd make bad calls against you a lot.

Edit: turn bet won't get him fold a T.

Edit: IMO, his understanding of the game isn't at Internet Pro level. If you use too advanced concept against him trying to tell him your range beat his range, or play your hand like over pair on the flop, he can't get it.


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