Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

My roommate and I had a long theoretical argument based on a hand that came up at the 30-60 HG game.

Principal players:

My roommate - pretty tight 2p2'er... everyone realizes he is a positional player, he has been three beating a lot from the HJ and button... but ironically he has had the goods several times, turning over KK on the button twice.

He is kind of a goofy guy... so I think he gets WAY more action than he should based on the fact that he is a good player and/or has a pretty tight preflop raise range. The way people view him is kind of an anomaly to me.

SB- Typical lose-mid-aged-asian-LA player.

BB- ROCK- ROCK- ROCK

folded to my buddy on the button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], RAISE

Call, Call

Flop K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check, Check, Bet

Call, Fold

Turn Queen[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Check, my roomy bets.

SB C/R's... my roommate folds.

Here's the argument.

ME- I HATE taking any line that doesn't allow me to get to showdown with a hand that has value. Furthermore... it seems like the overused "play" around LA is to C/R the turn against a steal raise with any hand, any draw, and/or ace high (pretty standard); this seems to be used WAY more around LA than would seem optimal.

I feel if you are going to fold this turn for one bet... why not just check behind and use that one bet you pumped into the pot on the turn to call a river bet and get to show-down?

I really think this guy's C/R range includes any flush draw, a King (obviously), a Queen, and all pocket pairs lower than 9's.

My Roomy- He feels you absolutely HAVE to bet here to charge hands like Ace high, flush draws, and smaller pairs... however, he feels it's an easy fold to the check raise.

I obviously disagree, due to my roomies age, his obvious steal position, and the looseness of the villian... I think folding this turn is really bad. AND, if you are capable of folding here for one bet... why not just check behind and get to the showdown for one bet?

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

your roommate obviously disagrees about the lady's turn check/raise range.

if he really does raise the turn with all the things you mentioned, it's a bet/call - not a check behind (unless you think her flop peel range is really narrow, but that obviously isnt the case based on the description).

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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your roommate obviously disagrees about the lady's turn check/raise range.

if he really does raise the turn with all the things you mentioned, it's a bet/call - not a check behind (unless you think her flop peel range is really narrow, but that obviously isnt the case based on the description).

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Agreed. I fold too, but I dont know how the games in LA play. In these parts, the c/r is a K 87% of the time.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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why not just check behind and get to the showdown for one bet?

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[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

I bet this Turn and I have to fold to the C/R. Maybe AC and FW play real different than LA, but both of these east coast hot spots Scream K here.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

Your friend is right.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

checking behind is really bad in this spot...

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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checking behind is really bad in this spot...

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wtf no. it's not REALLY BAD. It's actually player dependent.
You have to check this hand vs. a lot of players. A lower PP would almost always be a bet though.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

it's bad against the player described... someone who's loose and probably peels loose as well...

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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Your friend is right.

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Seconded. This turn is a standard bet/fold. So few people in the HG 30 game c/r this turn on a bluff that folding here is fairly easy, and since giving a free card is also quite bad, then the turn almost plays itself.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

"I HATE taking any line that doesn't allow me to get to showdown with a hand that has value."

How do you define value? There are two ranks of overcards to the pocket 9s.

That said, a guy calls your bet on a K-K-2 flop, unless that guy is very bad or very good, you're in trouble. And if your friend is viewed as "goofy," his opponent is less likely to try to make a play on him than he would be on a less goofy opponent.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

I play it the way your roommate did, it's pretty much the default line, imo. To take a different line I think you've got to have a pretty good read on SB's play. There is another factor to consider in this case: SB called the flop bet with a player behind him with no way to know what that player would do. In a 3-way hand with the typical players the player who smooth calls in that situation has got the King. They have the King so often that I'd not mind if your roommate checked the turn but, still, I think b/f is the way to go.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

All--

Who else prefers 3-betting the turn to calling?

--Nate

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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All--

Who else prefers 3-betting the turn to calling?

--Nate

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Sounds like the Slippery Laggro Slope, which is only a good path to go down against TAGs.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

Does no one else feel like the SB has the ability to CR the turn with any of the following hands:

Diamond flush draw

Spade Flush draw

Pocket pairs 3-8

10-J

A-10

A-J

and in some instances... total air.


I just feel like a tricky lose player (i.e. the small blind) is going to be willing to "make a move" on the turn to win the pot solely because it looks like my roomy is on a blatant button steal.

Furthermore... I disagree with what private joker said about the 30-60 game at HG not having a lot of turn check raising.

As a matter of fact... the 30-60 at HG seems to play a tad more aggressive than other mid-limit games I've played at the commerce.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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All--

Who else prefers 3-betting the turn to calling?

--Nate

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Is this so that you can comfortably fold to a 4th bet and/or get a check/ check scenario on the river? I'm a little lost on this line?

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

what is sb's cold calling range in the sb? can he have like Q9o/JTo?

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

You're both right and it depends on the opponent.

99 is vulnerable and you don't want to give a free card if at all possible. On the other hand...

If check/raising the turn is such a standard play with almost any hand as you say, then I'd bet the turn to induce a c/r. If check/raising a worst hand is just a decent possibility, then I'd check behind (as you advocated) and pay off the river.

I'm certainly not gonna criticize your roommate's play. In many instances he would've played it perfectly. Or he might've done better to check, or call down. Depends on the player.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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what is sb's cold calling range in the sb? can he have like Q9o/JTo?

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His range (against a "stealer") is about 50% of the deck... had my buddy been in mid position... and the same action had gone down... I agree this is an easy bet / fold to raise.

However, due to his virtually required steal position ... I think the SB is willing to take a shot here with a crazy range.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

I would almost never fold this. It's a blind battle, you have a pair and there are a lot of (semi)bluffing hands he can have. I would only bet/fold here if villain is very passive.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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My roommate and I had a long theoretical argument based on a hand that came up at the 30-60 HG game.

Principal players:

My roommate - pretty tight 2p2'er... everyone realizes he is a positional player, he has been three beating a lot from the HJ and button... but ironically he has had the goods several times, turning over KK on the button twice.

He is kind of a goofy guy... so I think he gets WAY more action than he should based on the fact that he is a good player and/or has a pretty tight preflop raise range. The way people view him is kind of an anomaly to me.

SB- Typical lose-mid-aged-asian-LA player.

BB- ROCK- ROCK- ROCK

folded to my buddy on the button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], RAISE

Call, Call

Flop K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check, Check, Bet

Call, Fold

Turn Queen[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Check, my roomy bets.

SB C/R's... my roommate folds.

Here's the argument.

ME- I HATE taking any line that doesn't allow me to get to showdown with a hand that has value. Furthermore... it seems like the overused "play" around LA is to C/R the turn against a steal raise with any hand, any draw, and/or ace high (pretty standard); this seems to be used WAY more around LA than would seem optimal.

I feel if you are going to fold this turn for one bet... why not just check behind and use that one bet you pumped into the pot on the turn to call a river bet and get to show-down?

I really think this guy's C/R range includes any flush draw, a King (obviously), a Queen, and all pocket pairs lower than 9's.

My Roomy- He feels you absolutely HAVE to bet here to charge hands like Ace high, flush draws, and smaller pairs... however, he feels it's an easy fold to the check raise.

I obviously disagree, due to my roomies age, his obvious steal position, and the looseness of the villian... I think folding this turn is really bad. AND, if you are capable of folding here for one bet... why not just check behind and get to the showdown for one bet?

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Of course it is a fold, two broadway overs. But you have to make that decision before you bet on the turn. You are going to invest one more bet, and one bet only, to try to win this pot. You can either check the turn to try to induce a bluff on the river, and invest your bet in calling. Or you can bet the turn, planning to check behind on the river, but you have to fold to a check raise. Which plan is best depends on the opponent. Against aggressive and tricky opponents the check on the turn is often best to avoid being forced into folding the best hand. Against conservative and passive opponents you have to bet the turn. They will not check raise frequently enough to make this a strong threat (and when they do you're beat and can comfortably fold), and you can't often induce a river bluff out of such players.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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All--

Who else prefers 3-betting the turn to calling?

--Nate

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Is this so that you can comfortably fold to a 4th bet and/or get a check/ check scenario on the river? I'm a little lost on this line?

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Yes, that would be the idea. Essentially a free showdown three bet. I don't like investing three bets with a pocket pair while two broadway overs are up there. But if you do then this is probably the best way to do it.

He says to do this "instead of calling". I don't like calling here, but if you were going to then you have obviously made the decision that you will call unimproved on the river because you don't have the pot odds to call with a two outer. Some of your reason for calling would have to be that you feel your hand currently may be best. So, having mentally decided that you will put in another two bets after the check raise [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] , I like Nate's idea. But that's the end of it. You fold to a 4 bet or to a river donk.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

What about calling, 3 betting, or checking to GET to showdown for another reason.

The pool of players that play that HG 30-60 are pretty small... I think it's important to let players know that you can't be check raised / bullied off hands.

Right wrong or indifferent... the players in that game know that I'm the aggressor... I'm GETTING to showdown. For that reason I get more action with my big hands... and I feel like people don't try to "get" me to fold by making "plays"

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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Or you can bet the turn, planning to check behind on the river, but you have to fold to a check raise.

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Why would you check behind on a river blank?

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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Or you can bet the turn, planning to check behind on the river, but you have to fold to a check raise.

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Why would you check behind on a river blank?

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Because your hand isn't good enough to invest two big bets over the turn and river.

If you want to invest more money in these situations, I think it will be costly. But you don't want to give the hands away either. It is establishing a budget for how much you are willing to invest in a hand, and then investing it in the way that will show the most profit in the long run against this particular type opponent.

When you have a pocket pair and there are two broadway overcards on the board you would like to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. In this case, a queen with a mediocre kicker would call you on the turn and would probably not lead into you on the river. Even a King with a weak kicker might play that way. Your nines are just not that strong. There is not much value in betting the river if checked to on a blank because there are very few hands worse than yours that will call, and just about no better hands that will fold.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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What about calling, 3 betting, or checking to GET to showdown for another reason.

The pool of players that play that HG 30-60 are pretty small... I think it's important to let players know that you can't be check raised / bullied off hands.

Right wrong or indifferent... the players in that game know that I'm the aggressor... I'm GETTING to showdown. For that reason I get more action with my big hands... and I feel like people don't try to "get" me to fold by making "plays"

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Yeah, those are meta-game considerations and require more information than we have here. Such things are variation plays for image and outside what would be the standard theoretical way to play a situation. If you folded to a couple of check raises recently then that would be cause to maybe call, like you say.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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Or you can bet the turn, planning to check behind on the river, but you have to fold to a check raise.

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Why would you check behind on a river blank?

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Because your hand isn't good enough to invest two big bets over the turn and river.

If you want to invest more money in these situations, I think it will be costly. But you don't want to give the hands away either. It is establishing a budget for how much you are willing to invest in a hand, and then investing it in the way that will show the most profit in the long run against this particular type opponent.

When you have a pocket pair and there are two broadway overcards on the board you would like to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. In this case, a queen with a mediocre kicker would call you on the turn and would probably not lead into you on the river. Even a King with a weak kicker might play that way. Your nines are just not that strong. There is not much value in betting the river if checked to on a blank because there are very few hands worse than yours that will call, and just about no better hands that will fold.

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If you bet the turn and he calls and he checks a river blank, there's no reason to think he has a king or queen, therefore you should bet.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

i wouldn't consider checking the turn unless villain's line so far means that more than half her range is trips or better.

So if you're right that SB could have many flushdraws and some other pairs/A-hi, then you should def bet the turn. If you don't know what to do when raised, take a guess. It'll still frequently be higher ev than checking.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

"a guy calls your bet on a K-K-2 flop"

when most players do this against me i can correctly check the turn and fold the river when they bet. every once in awhile ill call if it's a player who can call light and then bluff or value bet a worse hand on the river.

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 

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Or you can bet the turn, planning to check behind on the river, but you have to fold to a check raise.

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Why would you check behind on a river blank?

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Because your hand isn't good enough to invest two big bets over the turn and river.

If you want to invest more money in these situations, I think it will be costly. But you don't want to give the hands away either. It is establishing a budget for how much you are willing to invest in a hand, and then investing it in the way that will show the most profit in the long run against this particular type opponent.

When you have a pocket pair and there are two broadway overcards on the board you would like to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. In this case, a queen with a mediocre kicker would call you on the turn and would probably not lead into you on the river. Even a King with a weak kicker might play that way. Your nines are just not that strong. There is not much value in betting the river if checked to on a blank because there are very few hands worse than yours that will call, and just about no better hands that will fold.

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If you bet the turn and he calls and he checks a river blank, there's no reason to think he has a king or queen, therefore you should bet.

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Then what is he going to call with? Are we betting just because we think our hand may be best?? If you don't think a poor hand will call or a better hand will fold then there is no reason to bet.