PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range\"
 

Back in session...

The first step of the REM Process is to put your opponents on ranges of hands. This is one of the most important concepts in poker. So let's talk hand ranges.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range\"
 

Jack [censored] ten.
They always have jack [censored] ten.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jack [censored] ten.
They always have jack [censored] ten.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft!

IMO ranging is a process of elimination rather than being a process of compilation as the group of hands he "could have" is almost always too big to quantify whereas the group of hands he "really shouldnt have" is usually much easier to define.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range\"
 

A while ago one of my friends said "if JT makes the nuts, then someone has JT". I've several times verified this to be true.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

Reverse is true. If JT does not make the nuts, someone still has JT. Indeeed, if there is someone in a hand, he probably has JT.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

Sorry, can someone give me the jist of whats going on here, or maybe i just need to wait for the discussion to start and see what it is

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

[x] hero always has AK

[x] villian always has FD

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

Your giving too much credit to the villain, its second level thinking [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

anyone think that the hand ranges given in the book are not anywhere near realistic for 6max micros? It was one of the things I disliked most about PNL.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

[ QUOTE ]
anyone think that the hand ranges given in the book are not anywhere near realistic for 6max micros? It was one of the things I disliked most about PNL.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seemed like the book is aimed at higher level play - SPR is useful, but at lower limits where the villians aren't as likely to threaten you with pot sized bluffs, it doesn't matter as much.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

Can you please quote them for those of us who don't have the book?

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

i though the preflop standards they gave for tight players in early position was pretty dead on (i think they said PP,AK,AQ,AJskQS)....but thats pretty standard , there rly isnt much in this chapter ..cant wait till (range-equity-maximize discussion ....thats going to be interesting ...

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

Yeah I agree that the range for tight people is right on but the range for others could be about anything that is semi connected. What kind of range can you put on players like that any two.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range\"
 

Putting opponents on a range of hands is the most difficult thing for me to do. I don't know where to begin. For the first couple years in minbet poker I got caught up in the popular attempt to put someone on an exact hand. Then the next couple years in SNGs, I'd assign a range based on pretty much nothing in particular that consisted of "top 10%, top 13%, etc".

Does it just take observation over time to develop a feel for what a particular opponent may open with, or call with, or raise with?

To make it more confusing, its mentioned somewhere in the book that if a hand is possible, don't rule it out. Its too early in the morning to go find the book, but it was something like, if 85o makes the nuts and villain is betting strongly, reconsider your assigned range.

Maybe I just need more practice, but I understand I cannot calculate my equity without assinging a range. Then again, maybe its just the nature of the micros that makes this part difficult.

Onaflag.........

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

Hand reading is tough because people are fairly random in what they play.

Biggest things are stuff like "he made a big bet on the turn after limping preflop" - usually that means a player has a big draw or a hand > top pair, and mostly a big hand.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range\"
 

I think it is very interesting that the basic concepts are seemingly glossed over. Range is SO important.

Why is it that in every article or interview that Aba does he says NL is all about putting an opponent on a range of hands? He then says it’s about the E and M.

I realize that it’s a hard topic to discuss. It takes tons of experience to "know" what ranges to assign to different players. If one wants to become a better player, they must constantly assign ranges- in and out of hands.

Perhaps we could through some HH in here of typical situations and discuss how we arrive at the range for the specific opponent. I would start, but I have no access to PT right now.


Ret

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is very interesting that the basic concepts are seemingly glossed over. Range is SO important.

Why is it that in every article or interview that Aba does he says NL is all about putting an opponent on a range of hands? He then says it’s about the E and M.

I realize that it’s a hard topic to discuss. It takes tons of experience to "know" what ranges to assign to different players. If one wants to become a better player, they must constantly assign ranges- in and out of hands.

Perhaps we could through some HH in here of typical situations and discuss how we arrive at the range for the specific opponent. I would start, but I have no access to PT right now.


Ret

[/ QUOTE ]

aba is pretty sick at note-taking , if youve watched his videos on cardrunners , you can see how many notes he takes in a small span of time , in about 20 min (playing HU) , he already has enough notes to tell about a persons playing style/tendencies and makes adjustments accordingly ...

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

What's the EM stand for?

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's the EM stand for?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity. Maximize.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

*grunch*

When it comes to hand reading, most tutorials are like: "you start with a bunch of hands, then you add and subtract from them." So they imply that you really go ahead and be like "55+, AJo+, ATs+, KQ, KJs" etc. etc. I find this pretty hard to do and often even confusing and misleading since I feel like I waste a lot of time on thinking about hands that don't matter, i.e. big broadways that miss.
In one of your examples, you state a range more like "any Ace, any K, any pair, set, draw, air", i.e. in a more general way. So how do you really go about that? How detailed is your thinking about individual holdings? Or do you just think of classes of hands (TP decent kicker, set, air) and try to remember the implications of hand distributions?

This really troubles me, because I find the detailed way ineffective and I can't learn things that I consider sub-optimal. Yet every theory posts repeats it although in praxis most people seem to think differently.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

I haven't actually read the book, so this may not be relevant to the discussion, but it relates to the post above me.

I've never thought about how I approximate hand ranges while playing, but after the last post I thought about it a bit, and I think my though process is like this: If his complete range is a,b,c,x,y,z, I arrive at that range through:

What hands beat me that this player would take this line with on this board? a,b,c
What hands do I beat that this player would take this line with on this board? x,y,z
Are they all equally likely?

and then I do some super fast equity approximations and hopefully choose the right action [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

The more you think about it regularly, the more automatic it becomes. This may not matter at all, but I thought I'd try put my thoughts into words anyways :P

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

I am simply thinking in ranges of

- a draw (flush, straight, overcards)
- a monster (big over, two pair and better)
- strong one pair (small overpair, TPGK)
- weak one pair (TPNK, middle or underpair)
- air

This of course changes from player to player, for some players TPTK goes into weak hand category, some people think TPNK is a mosnter. Then I look at their stats, trends and how they played a hand and try to assign one of those ranges.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

some good comments so far, and some good ideas about how to go about assigning ranges....I like retleftolc's idea that maybe a couple of y'all can post hands that you played where you were unsure of the range analysis....and we can all discuss it....you don't even have to give the whole hand if it's not pertinent - let's focus specifically on range assignment....

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

one more comment is that I personally narrow hand ranges by looking at very specific tendencies wrt lines....specific action (check/call, check/raise, lead/call, etc.), vpip, pfr, 3-bet frequency, c-bet frequency, how they play the turn in and out of position, how they play the river in and out of position, etc. are all key things which aid me in narrowing an opponent's range....

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

Hi all,

I usually do it by feel until the turn. Then it's line analysis, like "he raised preflop, got three callers, bet flop, now half-pots turn against me alone." At that point I assign hands. When playing live I analyze physical cues too.

Matt

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

traz, nice post!
One of the first board reading exercises that I did when I first started learning was to take two cards and a flop, then name all the hands that beat those two cards (similar to Ed Miller's 'Hidden Outs' exercises). While this was a great exercise and a real eye-opener that helps to tighten down a noob's pre-flop range, it also plants the 'monster under every bed' neurosis seed (or it did for me anyway). This commonly led to my misunderstanding of range as "the specific hands that beat me, one of which is sure to be in my opponent's hand"

Some of the things that I think of when I'm trying to put a person on a range now include:
1) Does this player play junk hands? Loose players who see 80% of flops *must* be playing all sorts of garbage including stuff like J3s - it's sooted, 95o - i could make a straight with it, K9o - I'm not dominated often enough for it to matter (or even better - what do you mean dominated).

2) Is the person aware of position, and do they play it. If so, what position are they in this hand. If not, no adjustments are necessary to widen the range for later positions. The person who routinely limps from the first three spots has no idea what position is.

3) Does the person limp a lot of hands, and only raise pre-flop occasionally? If they raised pre-flop, they probably don't have a set of 7's, but if you have a set of 7's, you can probably stack them on a A,K, or Q high flop.

Angel Largay's book contained a great collection of caricatures for various players of varying looseness and aggressiveness. Even if you don't agree with his strategies (opinions are varied here on 2+2), I think the psychology section is worth the price of the book - and it helps to be able assign people around the table an archetype of 'former football star', 'curmudgeon', 'the wife is shopping and we are trying to out-spend each other'.

Mostly however, I think this is a slowly acquired skill and that the more I actively observe, pay attention and devote 'effortful study' to putting people on ranges, the better I get - But I still have much road to cover.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

One of the difficult things about ranging opponents for me is that I usually bias ranges on what I would do, even for a player that doesn't have similar stats to me. I mean, I know I shouldn't do that, and being aware of it, I lessen the problem, but sometimes it's really difficult to put poor players on ranges at the micros (and I try to avoid the good players)...you don't see them enough, and guys with similar stats can still have different ranges.

I try to compensate by using the techniques mentioned in a couple different posts, of seeing what specific action they take with various types of hands. I don't think that I do a great job of it, but I do think that's the way to go, at least until you start running into the same players on a more frequent basis than I run into my opponents now.

Whats his range?
 

Since I spoke up I'll try one . . .


A dry one- Vill is 44/13/1.35 over 136 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($24.50)
Hero ($37.75)
SB ($34.60)
BB ($49.85)
UTG ($16)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.5</font>, BB calls $1.50.

Assign a range.

I know this is a sad starter, but I searched my database(which made me sad- I suck, good thing others suck more) for others and had a hard time finding good ones. Probably because im tired.

Ret

Re: Whats his range?
 

Any one pair better than 44 and worse than AA, a set, any 2 pair, 86s, 64s, 98s.

Re: Whats his range?
 

yea his range is hella wide, and you're ahead of most of it

Re: Whats his range?
 

OK. Its a start. Somebody find a better example and submit for review.

Ret

Re: Whats his range?
 

Deleted last hand because it was probably a poor example.

Don't have exact tracker numbers because I am getting the HH from my email at work. The guy was fairly loose (~41 percent of flops) and I had seen him go for his entire stack with j10 on a 10 high board and q9 on a 9 high board - both of which were no way co-ordinated.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $47.75
Hero (BB): $106.55
UTG: $42.30
CO: $50.45
BTN: $49.95

Preflop: Hero is dealt xs xh (5 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $2.00</font>, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $3.50</font>, Hero calls $3.50

Turn: ($11.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

Pot Size: $11.25

Re: Whats his range?
 

Deleted because posted hand was deleted

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

[ QUOTE ]
One of the difficult things about ranging opponents for me is that I usually bias ranges on what I would do, even for a player that doesn't have similar stats to me. I mean, I know I shouldn't do that, and being aware of it, I lessen the problem, but sometimes it's really difficult to put poor players on ranges at the micros (and I try to avoid the good players)...you don't see them enough, and guys with similar stats can still have different ranges.

I try to compensate by using the techniques mentioned in a couple different posts, of seeing what specific action they take with various types of hands. I don't think that I do a great job of it, but I do think that's the way to go, at least until you start running into the same players on a more frequent basis than I run into my opponents now.

[/ QUOTE ]
One thing I write down in my notes very often is if a given player is an "Ace hunter" and/or a "flush hunter". Helps to not lose as much on cbeting into A high boards and calling bets once a flush hits

I pretty much use the same thought process as traz. What beats me and would play like this/what doesn't beat me and would play like this. Then I kinda weight it by what I think the player is capable of (i.e. supernit might raise a set that beats my TP but not a draw that doesn't) and that's about it.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

[ QUOTE ]
Loose players who see 80% of flops *must* be playing all sorts of garbage including stuff like J3s - it's sooted, 95o - i could make a straight with it, K9o - I'm not dominated often enough for it to matter (or even better - what do you mean dominated).

[/ QUOTE ]

No, even better - K2o - I might flop a pair of kings! That is the depth of thinking, literally, and in some games, that is kick ass because everyone else is playing J3 and 95 and middle pair is the nuts, so a flop of KJ9 you are starting to think about felting someone. The guy with the jacks knows the raisor is just bluffing that K.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

As for pre-flop, I assign the same range (which is wide) to the best and worst players at the table. The unimaginative weak tight ones that probably break even and the 15/2 rocks are the only ones worth trying to narrow down pre-flop.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

That's an often overlooked point: preflop and postflop ranges can be uncorrelated. Some players have a wide preflop range, but a straightforward postflop play. Others can be put on narrow preflop ranges, but their postflop play doesn't give you much information. If you think: "It's impossible to put these donkeys on a hand," well, these donkeys might call a preflop raise with 32s, but on the flop they often tell you exactly what they have.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($32)
BB ($34.60)
UTG ($66.15)
Hero ($24.90)
CO ($15)
Button ($31.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.35.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, CO (poster) calls $1, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($2.95) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, CO calls $2.

Turn: ($6.95) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $11.65</font>, Hero calls ??

what is the range of my villain?

45/18/0.93 180hands

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

I put him on:

- donkey because posted the blind out of time

- got some medium hand like: A8+, K9+, suited connectors, pocket pairs. KQ, QJ, QT... he didnt reraise pre flop, so he cant has AA, KK, QQ(assumig he is not a freak, what seems to be).

- on the flop I made my standard c-bet(value bet) and he called. at this moment I put him on a draw(89s, J9o and hands like that) or KQ, AT and hands like these. He didnt raise me on the flop, so I can start assuming he hasn't QT, QQ or TT... maybe 99, JJ(btw, JJ starts to enter on the range of hands he would have me raised pre flop).

- the draw HEATS. now WHAT? I think its pretty weak checking the turn and let him draw free for the river. so I bet and he insta shoves...

- now WHAT?

What hands beat me that this player would take this line with on this board? a,b,c
What hands do I beat that this player would take this line with on this board? x,y,z

Re: PNL Study Group Day 7: The REM Process \"Intro\" and \"R is for Range
 

On the turn when he raises you can put him from two pair flush to a flush draw to nothing. Hard to get away from the hand put it in you are still ahead of his range.