Heads up agreement?
 

I witnessed an incident recently and would like to hear the opinions from this forum. In a 2/5NL cash game, four palyers at a full table saw the flop. The flop action resulted in two players getting all in, and two players each with a couple of hundred behind. Before the turn, one of the players with money offered to the other player with money to check it down. At that point one of the all in players went ballistic, accusing them of collusion and demanding that their hands be killed.

It seems to me that in a live game for all intents and purposes this was a decision between two heads up players. Moreover, if they really were colluding, they would not want to get to the river.

Any opinions about whether this is permissible or not?

Thanks.

Re: Heads up agreement?
 

This is not acceptable. Of course their hands aren't dead, but with all-in players it is wrong to agree to check it down.

Re: Heads up agreement?
 

I play in a "hometown" indian casino and this sort of thing happens all the time.

But, we all know each other very well and have played thousands of hands together.

But, I have done this at Winstar in the 5/10nl game more than once also.

As far as I know it an acceptable practice. Not sure of the actual rules though.

Re: Heads up agreement?
 

Does this practice become more acceptable in a tournament play, where 2-3 players check down a hand in an attempt to eliminate another player?

Re: Heads up agreement?
 

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Does this practice become more acceptable in a tournament play, where 2-3 players check down a hand in an attempt to eliminate another player?

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it's 100% unacceptable in a tournament. assuming as the OP said that they verbally agreed to it.

Re: Heads up agreement?
 

This is collusion and unacceptable.


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Moreover, if they really were colluding, they would not want to get to the river.

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Of course they do. They are collusding to see that they both get the chance to make it to showdown.

The all in players are entitled to the protection that having the two players play individually would provide. Imagine an All-IN player has a set. Now one of the other players has top two and there is a flush draw and a straight draw on the board.

Player with top two very reasonably should be betting here to try get the draws out from the other player. But instead they agree to check it down and on the river the other player (who would have folded his pocket pair) hits a higher set on the river to beat you.

We have a situation here where you lost a pot because two players entered into an agreement to allow each other a free draw. that is collusion.

Re: Heads up agreement?
 

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Does this practice become more acceptable in a tournament play, where 2-3 players check down a hand in an attempt to eliminate another player?

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When they just do it (often incorrectly) they are trying to act in their best interest and not making an illegal agreement. If they say "let's check it down to knock this guy out" they are colluding.

Re: Heads up agreement?
 

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This is collusion and unacceptable.

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Hate to be a definition nit, but:

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collusion
n. A secret agreement between two or more parties for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose.


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This seems more of a spur of the moment action. Still completely unacceptable.

But there is always "Player A shrugs, sighs, and says 'I check' before the turn is dealt and Player B follows suit". Is the non-verbal equivalent just as unacceptable? Or just less distasteful?

Re: Heads up agreement?
 

I disagree with the defining collusion as having to be secret.

Re: Heads up agreement?
 

I don't see how it is not collusion if two players verbally agree to put another player at a disadvantage that he would not have if they had not talked to each other.

In tournaments it happens all the time but usually it is a non verbal agreement, the turn comes and with out looking at the cards just looking at the other player someone very quickly says check the other responds with check and the same on the river (you don't really want to get involved with another big stack and your goal is to knock someone out of the tournament)

In a cash game you could easily lose value for a lot of the reasons psandman stated not pushing your opponent of draws etc. I guess you are probably losing that same value in a tournaments but other things factor in like knocking out people.

.02 from a noob perspective