10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

5 handed.

hero has 4000 villain covers.
I raise Ah9o to 100 CO. Button calls.

Flop 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I lead for 200, button raises to 1150.

hero has been out of line in general, villain has been calling a lot preflop and generally folding to my cbets, is generally bad and im sensing is fed up w/ bs.

hero?

-JP

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

umm if you dont want to fold and you think pushing is > calling, obv push? what am i missing? do you want ppl to say its ok? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

all your options kind of suck here--but they all suck about equally so i dont think it really matters what you do. if he's the type to raise/fold with a wide range of hands i'm obv pushing. if he's the type to check a lot of turns if i call then i'm calling. if he's a nit and always has a set/baby flush when he raises in this spot then i'm folding.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

[ QUOTE ]
umm if you dont want to fold and you think pushing is > calling, obv push? what am i missing? do you want ppl to say its ok? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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yah i guess i kinda answered my q. thanks for the support.

hugs [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Only hesitation was due to being semi deep and pushing for a an overbet into a pot that began smallish (now is medium small i guess), vs an opponent who has shown little aggr. and me holding the key semibluff crd for him to have.

-JP

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

fold it. he's got to expect you to sometimes have the Ah and shove it with your laggy image, so his raise shows a lot of strength. i expect to see a set/flush here a ton.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

You say he is generally bad and fed up. Does this mean his range includes 1-pair hands here?

I think folding is best but pushing isn't horrible.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

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fold it. he's got to expect you to sometimes have the Ah and shove it with your laggy image, so his raise shows a lot of strength. i expect to see a set/flush here a ton.

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Given the circumstances you describe, I am totally with fsuplayer here.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

pushing is ok. your not gonna fold here i guess, if so a better line is to call and to let him get it in for you.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

No one views this frustrated player who is 'fed up' as willing to make this move with just about any piece of this flop here? What does he do with a loan 9? 88? Wouldn't it be the same play?

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

He's gotta be pretty nutty for you to push here I think... and I highly doubt most people are raise/folding a better hand here if you shove.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

Make a strong fold here. He is going to jack it up with a set/made flush/two pair/st8/air. I think that he rarly does this with air in this situation because even though he may be getting "fed up" with you, most opponnents will pick a better spot than a mono-tone board with air to risk such a substantial amount of money on air, to win a minimal amount in a hand where they suspect that you feel they are getting fed up at them.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

I've been pushing in spots like this a lot lately and in general getting stacked off [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] For some reason, though, his line actually doesn't convey a huge amounts of strength to me, and I disagree with those saying his range is weighted heavily towards sets and flushes. I would not be at all surprised to see a one pair-type hand there against which we're good (sort of) given OP's description of table dynamics. I would probably end up pushing here both a semi-bluff and for value.

Kirk

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

His raise looks like a bluff. This is very important. He's jacking up a 200 bet 5x. Why would he do this with a hand that he thinks has a good possibility of being best, IE: Top pair +flush draw etc. Instead he would make a normal reasonable raise to maybe 600. This looks like a case where hes making his bet look like a bluff, hoping the hero sees it as a raise of frustration and will push back with Overpair+flush draw, just Overpair etc. Or, it really is a bluff, in which case he will be giving up after that raise, so your risking your whole 4000 to take down that 1200 of his, I don't like. He's not calling off your c/r with a worse hand or putting more money into the pot via a bluff. Wait for a better spot

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

5 handed, you have a monster, this is an easy shove. I would probably fold JJ to this flop raise mind you.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

I would fold, you re risking alot and havent invested that much.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold, you re risking alot and havent invested that much.

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you need to adjust your thinking a little bit. What you have invested is not important-> what the pot size is. This maybe what you are getting at but thinking about it that way can -ively affect your game.

-JP

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

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5 handed, you have a monster, this is an easy shove. I would probably fold JJ to this flop raise mind you.

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Is this an analysis?

-JP

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

Btw when I said "I dont wnt to fold" that doesnt mean its not an option. WHen I said "calling sucks" that means calling is pretty much not an option.


Results: he snap calls my push w/ Thigh flush and I never am ont he right side of the rig.

PS. in retrospect I dont think I ever get called by worse except maybe kh9 but doubtful he has that. I also dont think this is ever a bluff or semibluff for reasons stated above (A of semibluffiness is in my hand, bad board). Still not sure how often he has a 9x crap and folds but I think (results oriented of course) that its prob not often enough to mke the push profitable due to the size of the push (But its close).

-JP

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

just be happy your opponent is calling with 10x hearts oop vs you.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

[ QUOTE ]
just be happy your opponent is calling with 10x hearts oop vs you.

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Hes in position, explain why im happy?

-JP

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
just be happy your opponent is calling with 10x hearts oop vs you.

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Hes in position, explain why im happy?

-JP

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bc he just dumped in like 200bb's with the 5th nuts. buddy list!

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

fold > push >>>>> call

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

calling doesn't suck NEARLY as much as everyone seems to think it does

donkey makes a good pt about calling early in the thread (adding to that, though, if he's the type to pull a big bluff you should call and check/call the turn). you have nut outs, no fold equity over a better hand at all, so pushing is stupid, IMO. if a blank falls and he checks back you dont have problems, and if a heart falls, YOU HAVE THE NUTS, and if a blank falls and he pushes then you should just weigh the odds of him continuing a bare semi or pure bluff here vs the odds you're drawing to hearts (or in ace in some rare cases).

i think i would fold, then call, and rarely push.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

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if a heart falls, YOU HAVE THE NUTS

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The trouble with holding the 1-card nuts here is you probably aren't getting paid much more off him. 80% of the time it comes a blank though and I just feel it leaves you in a horrible spot OOP.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

ARRRRRRRRRR INNNNNNNNN in your best Mimi Tran voice

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

it doesnt matter if you do or do not get paid off in this particular situation... dont you realize that the only way you will get "paid off" when you push the flop is if he has a flush or set and you suck out? the heart outs are irrelevant in this hand unless villain is semibluffing with a worse heart (say 9xKh) and the Ah serves as protection for us (its way better obviously to hold Ah9 in our situation than As9x or whatever)

calling isnt about getting paid, it's about considering you have the best hand and letting him continue to put money in.

there's also nothing wrong with calling and check/folding a blank turn, against some types of players.

with that said, i still fold. just trying to reinforce the argument that calling is better than shoving.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

If you shove and get called (by a set or flush), at least your equity is somewhere around 30% in a pot of $8K. You're getting 1.76-1 to call and see a turn, OOP, hoping a pair of 9s is good here and villain has decided to bluff at this pot but planning to check/fold to a blank turn anyway? Or are you really hoping to get to showdown with a pair of 9s and win? I agree folding is the best option, I just can't see how calling can be good at all.

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

no, i would be calling and calling if i thought he was bluffing, obviously

im saying against some opponents who will sometimes be bluffing the flop and rarely follow through, it would be correct to call and check/fold the turn

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

[ QUOTE ]
it doesnt matter if you do or do not get paid off in this particular situation... dont you realize that the only way you will get "paid off" when you push the flop is if he has a flush or set and you suck out? the heart outs are irrelevant in this hand unless villain is semibluffing with a worse heart (say 9xKh) and the Ah serves as protection for us (its way better obviously to hold Ah9 in our situation than As9x or whatever)

calling isnt about getting paid, it's about considering you have the best hand and letting him continue to put money in.

there's also nothing wrong with calling and check/folding a blank turn, against some types of players.

with that said, i still fold. just trying to reinforce the argument that calling is better than shoving.

[/ QUOTE ]

love this analysis

Re: 10/25 NL shallowly deep. I dont want to fold but calling sucks.
 

reraise all in and close your eyes