Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

In his 50/100 video, Dean c/r bluffs a 2p2 who I think is The Funky Llama -- in any case, all that's relevant is that Dean describes him as a tough 2p2er.

Llama raises from HJ, SB c, Dean c
4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Checked to Llama who bets, only Dean calls
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Dean c/r.

His reasoning is that when he (Dean) c/c the flop, his range is really wide, so Llama is betting again on the turn 100% of the time, which means Llama's range is wide too, so he'll be folding alot and the bluff will be +EV.

My question: Is Llama folding an ace here? Is he folding lower pocket pairs?

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

Depends how he views Dean. If he doesn´t think dean will bluff this card on this board, then it makes sense to do so. If he thinks Dean is random overaggro tag, then it kinda sucks.

I dont think CRing here should be the default play, but it may be good once in a while if you image is great.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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Depends how he views Dean. If he doesn´t think dean will bluff this card on this board, then it makes sense to do so. If he thinks Dean is random overaggro tag, then it kinda sucks.

I dont think CRing here should be the default play, but it may be good once in a while if you image is great.

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I am pretty sure that he knows it's Dean and is familiar with Dean's play.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

I don't think it's Funky Llama.

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I dont think CRing here should be the default play, but it may be good once in a while if you image is great.


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Agreed. Didn't Dean have K7? If so, he has the best hand most of the time here.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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I don't think it's Funky Llama.

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I dont think CRing here should be the default play, but it may be good once in a while if you image is great.


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Agreed. Didn't Dean have K7? If so, he has the best hand most of the time here.

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Haha... Yeah sorry dean had K7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

And yes, gemmer, my question was inspired by the point you are making. At first I was like... sweet bluff. But the more I thought about it, the more it seemed like Dean's hand must have been good anyway. I think maybe the guy is folding ace hi, but maybe not even that. Of course, it's nice to get him to fold a six outer.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

Its def not my default play, but imo profitable and a very useful weapon for shania.

I haven't played much with this guy, but I'm sure he knew who I am and that I'm a thinking TAG [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Ye I probably had the best hand but I do think I fold out some better and it's still good to c/r bluff here.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

highly doubt this was me

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

Think that is a flop fold..

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

It was JJLLama

Flop is interesting, as a default I've been folding, but it seems that lots of winning players peel lightly here -- it doesnt make sense if you are playing purely to hit a hand, but if you are gonna steal some pots........

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

Yea, that is not me.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

The reason to check/call this flop with any pair and CR the turn is because you get paid off every time. I don't think this play is profitable in a vacuum.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

i dont like this. llama will always call down because dean would have to have precisely Q high (QJ, QT, Q9 specifically) or KQ for this raise to make sense on the turn. dean and jut about everyone else i know will fastplay a 4 on this board 99% of the time.


bad spot to bluff

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

ok, i only like peeling K7hh here is if you are peeling most turns too because you think your K high is good. if you are calling to fold most turns (like if a 2 hits) you should just fold. you dotn have a bdfd and your bdsd is weak at best. your 7 out is also tainted because of opening up str8 possibilites for opponent.

in general with a bdfd here you can call flop and re-evaluate on the turn. now there are a bunch of cards that you can peel again (K, 7, heart, str8 cards, etc)

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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ok, i only like peeling K7hh here is if you are peeling most turns too because you think your K high is good. if you are calling to fold most turns (like if a 2 hits) you should just fold. you dotn have a bdfd and your bdsd is weak at best. your 7 out is also tainted because of opening up str8 possibilites for opponent.

in general with a bdfd here you can call flop and re-evaluate on the turn. now there are a bunch of cards that you can peel again (K, 7, heart, str8 cards, etc)

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bz,

going back to my original question, would you agree that villain is not folding an ace here?

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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ok, i only like peeling K7hh here is if you are peeling most turns too because you think your K high is good. if you are calling to fold most turns (like if a 2 hits) you should just fold. you dotn have a bdfd and your bdsd is weak at best. your 7 out is also tainted because of opening up str8 possibilites for opponent.

in general with a bdfd here you can call flop and re-evaluate on the turn. now there are a bunch of cards that you can peel again (K, 7, heart, str8 cards, etc)

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bz,

going back to my original question, would you agree that villain is not folding an ace here?

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if villain is good, not ever

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

FWIW, I do not agree with the logic that villian is betting a particularly wide range on the turn. Assume he has ace high, what is he putting dean on after only calling the flop? You'd think Dean would raise any type of draw here on a dry board.

Further, the reason any 4 gets fastplayed "99% of the time" is because the villian is going to check behind so much on this turn (with a hand that has any s.d. value). IMO, once villian bets the turn he either has a pair or he has a hand with no sd value at all. I think that makes a c/r with no pair the worst possible option.

Even when villian does have ace high, Dean's line is really believeable for the reasonas i stated.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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ok, i only like peeling K7hh here is if you are peeling most turns too because you think your K high is good. if you are calling to fold most turns (like if a 2 hits) you should just fold. you dotn have a bdfd and your bdsd is weak at best. your 7 out is also tainted because of opening up str8 possibilites for opponent.

in general with a bdfd here you can call flop and re-evaluate on the turn. now there are a bunch of cards that you can peel again (K, 7, heart, str8 cards, etc)

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bz,

going back to my original question, would you agree that villain is not folding an ace here?

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if villain is good, not ever

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You like a turn bet from villian with AT here? I think those types of hands are getting checked through most of the time.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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Further, the reason any 4 gets fastplayed "99% of the time" is because the villian is going to check behind so much on this turn (with a hand that has any s.d. value). IMO, once villian bets the turn he either has a pair or he has a hand with no sd value at all. I think that makes a c/r with no pair the worst possible option.

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i think this logic is wrong, and the reason a 4 is fastplayed is to encourage people to a) play back and b) call down lightly.


and lol@ checking behind AT, have you ever known a very good high stakes player to do this consistently? the reason good players cant do this is because a player who consistently checks behind everything on this turn will get eaten alive by people who peel with anything. you are essentially letting a player like me to see 2 cards for 1SB in a 5.5SB pot. and are giving up on a pot when you don't have A high.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

also just to clarify things, against many opponents (those who do peel lightly here, which is about 60% of high stakes palyers) im betting any 2 on the turn

of course if i think my oppt is very tight and will fold this without A high or better then i'll just check behind and hope to spike something

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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Further, the reason any 4 gets fastplayed "99% of the time" is because the villian is going to check behind so much on this turn (with a hand that has any s.d. value). IMO, once villian bets the turn he either has a pair or he has a hand with no sd value at all. I think that makes a c/r with no pair the worst possible option.

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i think this logic is wrong, and the reason a 4 is fastplayed is to encourage people to a) play back and b) call down lightly.


and lol@ checking behind AT, have you ever known a very good high stakes player to do this consistently? the reason good players cant do this is because a player who consistently checks behind everything on this turn will get eaten alive by people who peel with anything. you are essentially letting a player like me to see 2 cards for 1SB in a 5.5SB pot. and are giving up on a pot when you don't have A high.

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I disagree quite a bit. On the vast majority of flop of course you are betting a turn with ace high. But on this particular one I think it is a significant mistake. I'm not going to get into a whole discussion about it, but lets just say I am quite confident the logic you presented doesnt not apply in this case. Additionally, if my opponent was a player that would peel with total trash on this flop and be willing to make a play at it, I would know it. Of course, if I think I can bet the turn to induce a bluff and call down profitably, I would do do. However, I definitely do not think that is the case vs your average opponent.

Finally, I am never giving up a 5.5 BB pot. If I didn't have a hand I was calling a river lead with, I would always bet the turn. Of course villian will bet the turn with JT.

As far as the fast play, I agree with the reasons you stated. They are not however mutually exclusive from my reason - all three play in.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

BZ I find it interesting I completely agree with you in this thread but you laughed at me in the Schneids J9 hand. I feel the hands have some similarities.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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also just to clarify things, against many opponents (those who do peel lightly here, which is about 60% of high stakes palyers) im betting any 2 on the turn

of course if i think my oppt is very tight and will fold this without A high or better then i'll just check behind and hope to spike something

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Do you mean that if you know your opponent's flop peel means A hi or better, then you check the turn, otherwise you bet the turn with any 2?

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

yeah basically if my oppt is the type who always has a showdownable hand after calling the flop i just check the turn cuz its a waste to bet IMO

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

also dont try to play like me its sick high variance. u'll run 5BB/100 for 30K hands then breakeven for 60K hands. i guess its still a good winrate overall but the BE streaks are painful

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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also dont try to play like me its sick high variance. u'll run 5BB/100 for 30K hands then breakeven for 60K hands. i guess its still a good winrate overall but the BE streaks are painful

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??? from the few hundred hands we've played together it seems to me you play pretty much ABC poker. what do you think you do differently than the other tags?

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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also dont try to play like me its sick high variance. u'll run 5BB/100 for 30K hands then breakeven for 60K hands. i guess its still a good winrate overall but the BE streaks are painful

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??? from the few hundred hands we've played together it seems to me you play pretty much ABC poker. what do you think you do differently than the other tags?

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compare my posts in this thread and the other thread with DpRs posts about how bad my logic is haha


also my "thing" is that i bluff a lot, make really big folds, and make really loose calldowns

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

also im more passive than 90% of TAGs

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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BZ I find it interesting I completely agree with you in this thread but you laughed at me in the Schneids J9 hand. I feel the hands have some similarities.

-DeathDonkey

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DD, the hands have definite similarities, but on one board people fold, and on another board people don't fold.

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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BZ I find it interesting I completely agree with you in this thread but you laughed at me in the Schneids J9 hand. I feel the hands have some similarities.

-DeathDonkey

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DD, the hands have definite similarities, but on one board people fold, and on another board people don't fold.

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I agree - people fold on the J9 hand board, so how bad can my turn 3 bet idea be?

-DeathDonkey

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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BZ I find it interesting I completely agree with you in this thread but you laughed at me in the Schneids J9 hand. I feel the hands have some similarities.

-DeathDonkey

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DD, the hands have definite similarities, but on one board people fold, and on another board people don't fold.

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I agree - people fold on the J9 hand board, so how bad can my turn 3 bet idea be?

-DeathDonkey

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i don't know exactly what you're getting at. the reason i think it's bad is because nearly every time he raises that turn he has a either a showdownable hand or a hand that will see the river and you'll be firing a 3BB bluff for a relatively small pot and will be winning it far less than you're supposed to.

on the FLOP however you should be checkraising at least some % because its a hard to hit flop and its also a hard to peel flop, and hes literally betting the flop w/ 100% of his hands. we can't say the same about the turn.

in THIS case the board is much harder to hit and much less likely to scare oppts. literally 90% of players at mid/high stakes go into insta calldown mode when checkraised on this turn. its exploitable but not by bluffing them.

so basically while i agree that the other hand is much more bluffable i think when he raises the turn we're in the same [censored] hole we are in this hand when we raise the turn

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

Ok thanks BZ I can live with that and your last sentence is a good summary. I post the "out there" lines sometimes just to say "hey anyone ever consider this?" not that its my standard line.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

random bump but is there any way I can watch this video w/o signing up for cardrunners (not even sure if that's where this is.)

Re: Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama
 

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also dont try to play like me its sick high variance. u'll run 5BB/100 for 30K hands then breakeven for 60K hands. i guess its still a good winrate overall but the BE streaks are painful

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WTF? So did you make that video to show everyone how you don't play? That looked like about the lowest variance poker I've seen. Don't get me wrong I thought your play was solid but I would not call it high variance is all.