Razz river: call or raise?
 

Razz
(converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (3.20 SB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.60 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (4.60 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (6.60 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (8.60 BB)

Re: Razz river: call or raise?
 

I like a raise on 6th. He will almost never re-raise you and you might get a free showdown. You'll get to act last on 7th and you can decide then what you want to do.

If you don't improve:
* if he checks to you, you pay the same amount as if you just called 6th and 7th.
* If he bets he probably has improved to at least a 6. Hard to fold though.

If you do improve:
* if he checks to you, you can bet. You'll get the same amount as if you'd just called 6th and raised 7th
* if he bets, you can raise, and you'll get one bet extra.

Raising 6th sometimes gives you the option to make an extra 1bb, rarely costs you more, and may give you some more information. If he re-raises 6th and he's anywhere near decent (i.e. he can see your cards over his) then I would expect him to have the hand he's representing (a 754)

Note that if you're behind on 6th, then you have 7 outs to improve (2s and 4s) so you'll make a 6 around 20% of the time. Also, given the action, any of his cards could have paired him, which gives you the best hand. In fact there's something like a 70% chance that he has (at least) one pair and a 20% chance that he has 2 pair, if I remember the basic statistic properly. Also, since there are not too many of his up-cards visible (we see just one 7 and one 5) the chances that he's paired is higher than if we saw a lot of his upcards in other places (in our hand, in other dead cards)

Overall I think you're ahead on 6th an awful lot.

In summary... I like your line with a raise on the end against someone who will fire every street until you put up a fight, especially if he'll call light when you raise 7th. Against many other opponents (more rational ones) I like to raise 6th and put some fear into them, so that I can manipulate 7th better.

Re: Razz river: call or raise?
 

Rusty's analysis of 6th seems excellent to me. However, I would have folded on 4th. The pot isn't that big to take another of the top. Even though your opponent may have also paired.

Re: Razz river: call or raise?
 

hm im just wondering about third street...

Re: Razz river: call or raise?
 

4th is a loose call but Prax already knows that. If I was going to peel one off there I'd want a little better 3 card hand. Outs are still nice and live, though, and as of 4th st there are only 2 wheel cards outs missing (A and 4).

It's almost impossible to make guesses about whether the 4 paired villain. The chances are not high enough to make the peel based on that.

Re: Razz river: call or raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
hm im just wondering about third street...

[/ QUOTE ]I'm wondering what you're wondering. I shouldn't play a 7 against an 8 in the door when everyone else folds? Or I shouldn't raise so the BI folds?

Rusty: I called because the hand was still pretty live, I felt comfortable playing it to a later street since his high card was up, it was a 3 (if I have it he might not get it) instead of a K. I check-called it because I was always a card behind until 6th when I thought, "Yeah! Now I can raisssssshhheeee-it." When I saw the 5, it sure looked like he could have me pipped. Rats. So I played it slow all the way, this was someone I played with regularly, and he wasn't some laggy newbie. I wondered if it was too nitty.

Re: Razz river: call or raise?
 

If it's someone you've played with a lot, it might help to describe what he's like. Also, it might be good to know what he probably thinks of you, if you have any idea.

I don't really care about 4th. I don't think it's the worlds greatest call, but certainly it's one I've made before and I don't think it's the worlds most awful call anyway. To me this question is about 6th/7th so that's what I answered. I just commented on 4th because someone asked about it.

Re: Razz river: call or raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
To me this question is about 6th/7th so that's what I answered. I just commented on 4th because someone asked about it.

[/ QUOTE ]And I appreciate it. You were right about him likely being paired, too, he was.

Re: Razz river: call or raise?
 

I think I just call this river. His bet on 6th tells me he's either made or bluffing, so I don't see a whole lot of value in raising...

Re: Razz river: call or raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hm im just wondering about third street...

[/ QUOTE ]I'm wondering what you're wondering. I shouldn't play a 7 against an 8 in the door when everyone else folds? Or I shouldn't raise so the BI folds?

[/ QUOTE ]

hey im just wondering, no harm in just wondering [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]