relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

this has been long debated, im wondering the general opinion about corrolation between intelligence and SAT scores. i know there are many arguments that the SAT doesn't really cover material that is related to how intelligent someone is but it also seems that it couldn't be a coincidence that, and this is just from my personal experience, more intelligent people tend to do better on the test. also to simplify the matter lets limit intelligence to an academic context

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

Define intelligence first.

One would assume that there is some correlation between intelligence and SAT scores. With that said, the SAT tests a lot of very specific knowledge that I wouldn't consider "intelligence". I wouldn't say that knowing the vocabulary words or the shortcuts to solving some of the math problems means that you are smarter, it just means that you've had more education.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

I don't know why we get so hung up on this, I know what furyshade is trying to say.

When I meet someone, after a very short time I can say, he's intelligent/dumb/super intelligent etc... Without defining what I mean one little bit, I am sure that over a correct sample size, the people I assigned to be super intelligent would outperform the people I assigned as intelligent etc... on average in these AND IQ tests.

I don't know how we can not atribute any significance to this correlation, for want of a unerversally agreeable definition of 'intelligent'.

It just doesn't seem, well, intelligent.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

I scored a 180 on the LSAT. This should be ample proof for 2+2'ers that there is no significant correlation between standardized test scores and intelligence.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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I scored a 180 on the LSAT. This should be ample proof for 2+2'ers that there is no significant correlation between standardized test scores and intelligence.

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We can derive this from ONE result?

Maybe we should also define 'correlation'.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

100% dependant on your definition of intelligence. there are many possible definitions and they are all arbitrary

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

one thing about the SAT: there are no hard problems on it. it is more about your "batting average" on easy problems than it is about mental depth.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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this has been long debated, im wondering the general opinion about corrolation between intelligence and SAT scores. i know there are many arguments that the SAT doesn't really cover material that is related to how intelligent someone is but it also seems that it couldn't be a coincidence that, and this is just from my personal experience, more intelligent people tend to do better on the test. also to simplify the matter lets limit intelligence to an academic context

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I'd say its a direct correlation. No wait...inverse. No...direct. Definitely direct.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

If school results correlate with intelligence, then intelligence tests seriously need some work.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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If school results correlate with intelligence, then intelligence tests seriously need some work.

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You honestly think it should be a random relationship?

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

Willie is of course right that the SAT has no granularity at the upper range of analytic intelligence.

However, if someone cannot score perfect or near-perfect on the SAT, it is very unlikely that person will flourish in a difficult academic setting.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

In high school I took all the AP and honors english, history, and science classes but not math. When I took the SAT I took it once and scored 640 on the verbal and 420 on the math in 1998. My math education was the pits in high school, a total joke. I am talking I never learned geometry or very much Algebra 2. So based on my results and quality of education throughout math, english, science, and history, I tend to think that SAT scores take into account your quality of education as well as your level of intelligence.

Now when I took the GRE in 04 I did poor on it as well. I think I scored 1000 for quantitative and verbal with verbal being much higher. However on the analytical writing part I scored a 5 out of 6 which I was told is very good (wonder what the % is for ppl getting a 6). I credit much of my poor results on this test to my poor math skills which are nonexistent outside basic statistics and my lack of vocabulary. So to me this is a test of how much math you remember from high school unless you major in math and how big your vocabulary is. When I got my results it was no shocker to me that I did the best in the analytical writing part. I actually thought I was going to score 800 or lower on the Q+V. Luckily for me I had a prof who really wanted me in the program so my results did not matter.

I took an IQ test in middle school and scored a 122 on it, or two points away from being considered "academically gifted" and put in advanced math and english classes which is why I ended up in poor math classes but the best history science and english classes since the math you could not select but you could the others regardless of your "academically gifted" standing.

Cliffnotes: I think the whole point I am trying to drive home here is that your results on these tests are determined by your quality of education, how hard you worked in school, AND your level of intelligence.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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However, if someone cannot score perfect or near-perfect on the SAT, it is very unlikely that person will flourish in a difficult academic setting.

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This is spot on b/c one who will not take the time to get a high score on the test is not going to take the time to get good grades in a difficult setting since they have no idea how to get it done on a smaller scale like in HS. I did not even go to college after HS cause I was so lazy in HS and had such bad math classes I knew I would flunk out so I did two years in a comm. college first. Best money I ever spent/saved as I was nowhere near ready for college level work.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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If school results correlate with intelligence, then intelligence tests seriously need some work.

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You honestly think it should be a random relationship?

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No, not random. In my drunken state I probably failed to get my point across. Some logical puzzle solving ability probably gets you a long way in school, but I don't think that alone makes anyone worthy of being called intelligent. I've certainly met my fair share of stupid people with top grades.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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If school results correlate with intelligence, then intelligence tests seriously need some work.

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You honestly think it should be a random relationship?

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No, not random. In my drunken state I probably failed to get my point across. Some logical puzzle solving ability probably gets you a long way in school, but I don't think that alone makes anyone worthy of being called intelligent. I've certainly met my fair share of stupid people with top grades.

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What's the point of such an amorphous definition of "intelligence"? For example, Godel starved himself to death after his wife was hospitalized because he believed everyone else was conspiring to poison him.

Obviously by your all-encompassing fuzzy terminology, Godel was a very stupid man. And yet you can count on the fingers of your two hands the number of mathematicians rivaling his staggering insight IN ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY.

You seem to think intelligence denotes self-actualization, but it really doesn't in any usage I'm familiar with.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

Sorry if I fail to see where in my post I stated that paranoia = stupidity.

Maybe at one time academic provess was a testament of intelligence, these days it is just a skill like any other. Fine mathematicians probably need high capacity for solving logical puzzles, so you need some well developed brain centre. Someone who needs complex motoric skills in their professions also have a well developed brain centre and indeed well developed nervous system, and their skill is just as high demand.

Yes I hold that the definition of intelligence as proposed by IQ tests are indeed simple and stupid, and think it is abhorrent the way it is often used to create arbitrary differences of worth.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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Sorry if I fail to see where in my post I stated that paranoia = stupidity.

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Then I've misunderstood your gist. You agree that Godel was in the upper tier of attainable intelligence, even though he starved himself to death?

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Yes I hold that the definition of intelligence as proposed by IQ tests are indeed simple and stupid, and think it is abhorrent the way it is often used to create arbitrary differences of worth.

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But IQ isn't an arbitrary measure of worth, if it's impossible to score well on IQ tests without being intelligent. (And this does appear to be the case.)

Even if you don't like the idea of calling low IQ people "stupid" (or some pejorative), still you agree that the property commonly referred as "intelligence" correlates with IQ? (That is: high IQ is a sufficient---if perhaps not necessary---condition for intelligence.)

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

I don't think you have to score high on the IQ measure to be very intelligent, nor do I agree that scoring high on an IQ test necessarily means you are very intelligent.

But scoring high does mean your brain is well geared to perform certain forms of thinking, and I'll agree that the IQ scale measures one facet of intelligence.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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However on the analytical writing part I scored a 5 out of 6 which I was told is very good (wonder what the % is for ppl getting a 6).

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a 5 on writing on the GRE is 73rd percentile.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

I must be very out of the loop usage-wise, if you're comfortable labeling so many domains as referents of "intelligence."

E.g., this baffles me:

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...nor do I agree that scoring high on an IQ test necessarily means you are very intelligent.

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Tell me Taryn consistently scores 150 on IQ tests. I cannot think of a single cognitive function for which I would not bet that Taryn easily outstrips a 120 scorer. Pattern matching, memorization, logical deduction, language acquisition...I mean, ANYTHING.

What am I missing? How is it that high IQ is not sufficient for intelligence?

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

I think that if you score very highly on an IQ test you probably have a high intelligence. Unfortunately If you have a very high intelligence you won't necessarily have a high IQ score. Does that make any sense?

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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I think that if you score very highly on an IQ test you probably have a high intelligence. Unfortunately If you have a very high intelligence you won't necessarily have a high IQ score. Does that make any sense?

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To me---no. But I guess I'll just have to accept that "intelligent" is now a billowing portmanteau of a word that envelopes bloody close to everyone. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

I haven't said a 150 scorer can't be very intelligent. I have said a 150 scorer doesn't have to be very intelligent.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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I haven't said a 150 scorer can't be very intelligent. I have said a 150 scorer doesn't have to be very intelligent.

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Ok, I'll try to follow you one last time (without much hope, heh.) What necessary quality for intelligence could a 150 scorer possibly lack?

It's really that simple...I cannot think of a way that someone could score 150 on an IQ test and still qualify as unintelligent to me. (I've only known 1-2? people in real life who could score that high, and they basically awed me.)

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

Everyone intuitively knows what "intelligence" means.

If classes of students of any age are asked to rank each other according to their natural view of "intelligence" it will correlate incredibly well with IQ tests.

Some people like to be nice to everyone, they want to be able to tell people who score badly on IQ tests that they can still be "intelligent" in their own special way.

So they attempt to change the meaning of "intelligence" and kick up a fuss about its definition whenever it is used in a way that is not all-encompassing.

If they have a good point, then all words are meaningless unless defined, and since you will attempt to define them using other words, everything is meaningless and everybody and every thing can be correctly described using every adjective that ever existed.

There is no non-meritocratic definition of intelligence that is of any use to us, and our standard natural definition (which matches IQ test) proves to have amazing predictive validity again and again and again.

We can tollerate telling some kid that couldn't be bothered passing a maths class that his "creative" doodles means he is intelligent in a different way, but lets not pretend that has a real meaning.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

People who score high on intelligence tests will have impressive capacity for solving verbal, numerical and geometrical puzzles by traditional logic standards. In this regard they will be impressive.

However from the perspective of cognitive neuroscience, who are the guys who are building AIs, this distinction of intelligence is useless. They can build machines that do these puzzles far better than people, but it is still agreed that these machines are not very intelligent in any useful form of the expression.

Simply put the measure LACKS the ability to measure a large set of values we need to measure a meaningful value for intelligence.

A skilled piano player has exceptionally fine motor control and a highly developed nervous system and sense of touch. His sense of hearing is immense, the sense of rhytm highly evolved, the centres of his brains that pick up sound patterns is also highly developed. His brain will be specialized for this in the same way a skilled mathematician is skilled in maths. But the whole package is in its right, from a pure 'nervous system capacity' standpoint far more impressive. But still his ability may fall entirely outside of the realm of what an IQ test measures and his intelligence may even be ranked as average.

This simply isn't meaningful. Someone sat down and decided what was 'useful intelligence' and made a test for it.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

tame -

What do you think about Alex-db's post? He also suggests that the referent domains of "intelligence" are quite atomic and correlate heavily with IQ. So when you say...

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Simply put the measure LACKS the ability to measure a large set of values we need to measure a meaningful value for intelligence.

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...you confuse us, because IQ seems quite comprehensive and meaningful to Alex and me. Again, I cannot think of any scenario where someone scores 150 and then appears unintelligent to me.

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A skilled piano player has exceptionally fine motor control and a highly developed nervous system and sense of touch. His sense of hearing is immense, the sense of rhytm highly evolved, the centres of his brains that pick up sound patterns is also highly developed. His brain will be specialized for this in the same way a skilled mathematician is skilled in maths. But the whole package is in its right, from a pure 'nervous system capacity' standpoint far more impressive. But still his ability may fall entirely outside of the realm of what an IQ test measures and his intelligence may even be ranked as average.

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Ironically, I have extensive experience with pianists, and the best are always very "intelligent" in the IQ-y sense that Alex and I mean.

But that's neither here nor there...again, I'm just saying that in normal usage, there is no aspect of "intelligence" that a high IQ score is not sufficient for demonstrating.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

Creativity, social skills, ability to handle stress, outside the box thinking, leadership ability, empathy, openness, senso-motoric ability, spatial awareness, courage/ability to control panic...too name a few.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

Yeah, I don't consider any of those except creativity (of a sort) to be constitutive for intelligence. Just a question of usage, of course, no material consideration...all those things are highly desirable no matter what you call them.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

Yep, my viewpoint is essentially that since these things are part of a complete view of intelligence, and that IQ just measures a small facet of brain capacity.

I also happen to think that the value of IQ is vastly overstated in academic papers because it stems from the academic environment, which classically puts great emphasis on logical capacity.

My pet peevve is probably that IQ have grown far too equivalent with the word intelligence, sometimes to the extent that IQ and intelligence is seen as the same thing.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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I cannot think of a single cognitive function for which I would not bet that Taryn easily outstrips a 120 scorer. Pattern matching, memorization, logical deduction, language acquisition...I mean, ANYTHING.

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physical coordination. musical creativity. social intuition.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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Yeah, I don't consider any of those except creativity (of a sort) to be constitutive for intelligence.

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what's your point, other than that the definition of intelligence is arbitrary?

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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Creativity, social skills, ability to handle stress, outside the box thinking, leadership ability, empathy, openness, senso-motoric ability,spatial awareness, courage/ability to control panic...too name a few.

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These correlate well with IQ tests.



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Creativity, social skills, ability to handle stress, outside the box thinking, leadership ability, empathy, openness, senso-motoric ability, spatial awareness, courage/ability to control panic...too name a few.

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These aren't considered to be "intelligence" by the majority of people usings its normal meaning.

"That kid is not very intelligent"
"No she is very intelligent because she is very calm in emergencies and is the life of the party"
"WTF has that got to do with intelligence? Did you mis-hear me?"

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

Yep, that's how ingrained the term has become. For most people logic capacity in a limited set of fields as measured by IQ is now the chief measurement of overall intelligence.

So a lot of people with brilliant mental capacity perfect for doing certain tasks very well can then branded as 'averagely intelligent'. I sense a lot of academic bias in the IQ measure.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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Yep, that's how ingrained the term has become.

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How was the term used in, say, 1850?
High-jumping ability or ??
Or were the people that were considered intelligent then ( called intelligent in the day) the same ones we would call intelligent now?

luckyme

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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Yep, that's how ingrained the term has become. For most people logic capacity in a limited set of fields as measured by IQ is now the chief measurement of overall intelligence.

So a lot of people with brilliant mental capacity perfect for doing certain tasks very well can then branded as 'averagely intelligent'. I sense a lot of academic bias in the IQ measure.

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John is capable of being shouted at by his boss all day long because he never thinks about anything, his mind is literally blank. He is also capable, however, after many years of training, of cleaning the dirtiest, smelliest toilets in the world for 70hrs/week without complaining, thanks to his blank mind.

On his resume, it reads -'brilliant mental capacity perfect for doing certain tasks very well.'

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

I am grunching here a little bit. But there is no real relationship between IQ(if you want to use that as a standard for intelligence) and results on SAT or ACT. SAT is a test that will try and figure out how one will do in their first semester of college. ACT is a test to figure out how much of the high school information a student can remember.

I don't know much about the SAT, but I do know that there are classes that people can take so when they take the ACT they can improve several point. If you put a lot of effort into this class your test results increase greatly. If you're trying to gauge someone's intelligence they should not be able to greatly improve their results from a class once a week for a couple of months. Since I was not forced to take the SAT I would not know if there are classes that are capable of doing that.

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

[rant]It is tilting me that people can read this thread and still think thst there is NO CORRELATION between intelligence, and test scores, and IQ.

NO CORRELATION? SERIOUSLY? [/rant]

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

uh, in my OP i never even used the phrase "IQ", im asking about the relationship between SAT scores and intelligence, not IQ scores and intelligence

Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?
 

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uh, in my OP i never even used the phrase "IQ", im asking about the relationship between SAT scores and intelligence, not IQ scores and intelligence

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I know.

I am saying that I find it incredible that people can say there is no correlation between any two of the THREE.