Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

Hero is 22/18 preflop. Aggro and three betting fairly light.

Villian is 19/13 preflop. Has seen us three bet and four bet light, but with marginal made hands and not air. SN is Lady_Sharrow on ftp, no super reads to be honest.

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($1180)
MP ($210)
CO ($963.75)
Hero ($1807)
SB ($1005)
BB ($1762)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $36</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $36, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($87) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $66</font>, Hero calls $66.

Turn: ($219) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $150</font>, UTG calls $150.

River: ($519) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $375</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $928 (All-In)</font>,

We're getting 3 to 1.

This is an atrocious spot to bluff for villian though, right? Doesn't villian always have AT or TT?

FWIW, villian tanked for like 10 seconds before checking river.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

19/13 will raise only ATs UTG, for sure.

i think if u called his most likely hand is TT.

maayybe 65s occasionally as well as AA.

anyways i fold

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

wow thats pretty sick i have to admit, i think you have to fold, you cant put him on a bluff here imo i highly doubt hes that sick

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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19/13 will raise only ATs UTG, for sure.

i think if u called his most likely hand is TT.

maayybe 65s occasionally as well as AA.

anyways i fold

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plus since u cold called preflop im sure he thinks sets are in your possible range

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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19/13 will raise only ATs UTG, for sure.

i think if u called his most likely hand is TT.

maayybe 65s occasionally as well as AA.

anyways i fold

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i agree, but i will say that i think people sometimes randomly raise hands utg, could have had a read on table that blinds were tight when he was utg and raise ATo or something

i'm not saying he does and ia gree it's not in his static range, but i think ATo is in his tilting and kinetic range for sure, hell some guys have no concept of position i'm ont positive this person is good or no hero has played 3.5k hands with him/her and no real reads.

so maybe half or a third of the combos of ATo are in the range, and ATs

still, wtf

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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19/13 will raise only ATs UTG, for sure.

i think if u called his most likely hand is TT.

maayybe 65s occasionally as well as AA.

anyways i fold

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, but i will say that i think people sometimes randomly raise hands utg, could have had a read on table that blinds were tight when he was utg and raise ATo or something

i'm not saying he does and ia gree it's not in his static range, but i think ATo is in his tilting and kinetic range for sure, hell some guys have no concept of position i'm ont positive this person is good or no hero has played 3.5k hands with him/her and no real reads.

so maybe half or a third of the combos of ATo are in the range, and ATs

still, wtf

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hahahaha, uhhhmmm, we still lose to AT (static or kinetic).

also its generally my experience that if you are playing 19/13, its specifically because you dont want to pay attention to things like how tight the blinds are when deciding whether to raise preflop, so i would be more likely to put him on a narrow range.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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19/13 will raise only ATs UTG, for sure.

i think if u called his most likely hand is TT.

maayybe 65s occasionally as well as AA.

anyways i fold

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, but i will say that i think people sometimes randomly raise hands utg, could have had a read on table that blinds were tight when he was utg and raise ATo or something

i'm not saying he does and ia gree it's not in his static range, but i think ATo is in his tilting and kinetic range for sure, hell some guys have no concept of position i'm ont positive this person is good or no hero has played 3.5k hands with him/her and no real reads.

so maybe half or a third of the combos of ATo are in the range, and ATs

still, wtf

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hahahaha, uhhhmmm, we still lose to AT (static or kinetic).

also its generally my experience that if you are playing 19/13, its specifically because you dont want to pay attention to things like how tight the blinds are when deciding whether to raise preflop, so i would be more likely to put him on a narrow range.

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good point

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

in 15 minutes half of this thread is actionjacson, i think i'm about to forum tilt

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

like the easiest fold ever?

I think it's fairly unlikely that he interprets your line as very bluffy and hence rebluffs you with a hand he is worried might not beat your bluff. (like 99 maybe)

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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like the easiest fold ever?

I think it's fairly unlikely that he interprets your line as very bluffy and hence rebluffs you with a hand he is worried might not beat your bluff. (like 99 maybe)

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agree but we're getting three toooo onneee

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

Seems like A10 or 1010 basically always here. I mean their is no way hes value betting worse and no way he pulled some OOP float on the turn with the intent to cr bluff the river.

So since hes not bluffing or value betting worse, fold seems pretty good.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

yuck what a ghey spot. I wouldn't fault either option here really and I would probably convince myself to call because I'm a huge station, but folding is probably right vs this guy.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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Seems like A10 or 1010 basically always here. I mean their is no way hes value betting worse and no way he pulled some OOP float on the turn with the intent to cr bluff the river.

So since hes not bluffing or value betting worse, fold seems pretty good.

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ok when are we going to keep playing hu? i'm free after 8pm EST tonight fwiw

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

Really easy fold.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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Really easy fold.

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I don't think it can be really easy. This is 5-10 so like if he does turn out to be a winner, I have to give him some credit for 88/76 here turning into a bluff, specifically if he thinks hero can make folds.

Also, if he percieves we raise a set on the flop, and A7 = A4, which I'm pretty sure are both true, isn't this like, near the top of our range? (besides the nuts obv)

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

Obviously it's not an unexploitable fold. There's no deep theory here, it's a quesiton of what % do you think a guy fitting this description is bluffing. I'm saying in my experience it's not a bluff nearly often enough to call.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

Does villain ever do this with AK, AQ? If he does i think you can call. If he doesnt than i think you can fold

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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Does villain ever do this with AK, AQ? If he does i think you can call. If he doesnt than i think you can fold

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C/ring for value with AK/AQ here is suicide here, so that can be ruled out. I dont think he's ever raising worse for value and he's rarely bluffing so folding looks right here.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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Does villain ever do this with AK, AQ? If he does i think you can call. If he doesnt than i think you can fold

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C/ring for value with AK/AQ here is suicide here, so that can be ruled out. I dont think he's ever raising worse for value and he's rarely bluffing so folding looks right here.

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this was the point i was trying to make in a roundabout way, ty

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

Simply put if villain is never c/r bluffing here and he also is never c/r value betting a worse hand, then it is an obvious fold.

If u ended up calling and you won, then obviously ur analysis was right, but your information was wrong

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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Simply put if villain is never c/r bluffing here and he also is never c/r value betting a worse hand, then it is an obvious fold.

If u ended up calling and you won, then obviously ur analysis was right, but your information was wrong

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wait whaa? i agree with the things that you said, but getting better than 3 to 1 at these stakes this hand has to be close still.

ppl have fps or show up with random hands too much.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

id prob call if you were playing super aggro
fold if you weren't bluffing a lot.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

pot odds are important but only in relation ship to a persons range and ur equity against said range, so like i said this comes down to this individuals bluffing frequency here, or their frequency to c/r with TPTK.

I have never played with villain so i can only go off the info you gave which i took to mean that this person is in general really nitty, so I dont see them showing up with a worse hand here almost never which is why i would say fold

I guess what i was trying to say earlier was that even if you think it might be slightly -EV to call currently, it might be worth it to call if you play against this player often so that you can get a better line on their play, since you stated that you have played 3.5k hands with him and dont know a whole lot yet about him

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

That 19/13 is over how many hands?

I can definitely see this being AK, while most of this board will say that is a terrible play, people do it.

I definitely do not think this is an easy fold.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

How often do you expect him to call the river with say JJ?

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

This is a tough spot for sure, but I think your line still looks pretty strong and I don't think villain is going to c/r bluff a pretty strong river bet with these stack sizes, it just seems suicidal.

A call probably isn't horrible, but I think this is specifically TT/AT a ton of the time. Hard to say if he would ever play a flopped straight or set in this manner, only you can really be the judge of that (or anybody who has played villain).

But then again I pretty much never fold so I'm sure I'd call this and likely hate myself afterwards.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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That 19/13 is over how many hands?

I can definitely see this being AK, while most of this board will say that is a terrible play, people do it.

I definitely do not think this is an easy fold.

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Agreed, I think folding is good but it's close, and if I suspect he could be turning some funky hand into a bluff I'm gonna talk myself into sticking the rest in, and given the fact that I believe this guy is pretty good, he's most likely capable of it. Also AE, your image makes these situations all the more complicated.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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This is a tough spot for sure, but I think your line still looks pretty strong and I don't think villain is going to c/r bluff a pretty strong river bet with these stack sizes, it just seems suicidal.

A call probably isn't horrible, but I think this is specifically TT/AT a ton of the time. Hard to say if he would ever play a flopped straight or set in this manner, only you can really be the judge of that (or anybody who has played villain).

But then again I pretty much never fold so I'm sure I'd call this and likely hate myself afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

I think you're pretty [censored] here most of the time. Villains tanking before the river followed by a c/rai seems v. strong. I probably fold if I'm playing really well and call if I'm tilty.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

this spot sucks.


+1 for the post count.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

i've spent a good 10-15 mins thinking about this.

my conclusion is way too general; i think this is completely dependent on history versus this opponent. given you have no real reads after 3.5k hands, i think you should be able to, on average, discount almost all the hands you beat, except for AK. I can see him playing AK this way.
That leaves AT, TT, AA, 77.

problem as you highlight is he could be on semi-tilt and have QQ/KK/55/66 and thought [censored] it.

this really does suck as a situation. i think to get the best idea given no real history (which itself lowers his bluffing frequency here) is that he tanked for 10 seconds. he clearly wasn't sure what to do. for me that doesn't scream out tilt, that is more '[censored] i have AA/TT/AK' and don't know what to do.

3 to 1, this really is tight. part of me thinks AK would play like this as he wouldn't want to face a raise/shove if he bets the river, hence his check. then he is like 'wait a minute, im probably ahead, let's shove'.

this is very marginal given your getting 3 to 1. also given you flat call the flop, he probably doesn't put you on a set or two pair, and so could figure you have AJ/AQ and so check-calls with AK on the turn and then [censored] himself on the river as he doesn't know what to do. equally it could be '[censored] i have AA, do i value bet or check, wait a minute, im only getting called/raised by a hand that would bet, so i might as well check and let him bet so i can check-raise and gives him a chance to bluff'.

tough spot. when i first read it i was 'def fold', looking into it more i think still a fold, but one i wouldn't feel great about making. call isn't that spewy i dont think, especially when you type [censored] into the chat box and represent tilt.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

Ive been in similar situations with sharrow a few times. We used to tangle alot. Sharrow knows u have a hand like u have here and u better believe he/she is not bluffing or has AK or lower 2 pair. Sharrow just has A10 or 1010 here. she/he runs too good for my liking, the sn lady sharrow actually tilts me every time i type or see it.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

I can't wrap myself around the theory of this hand enough to respond.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

Since it seems fairly likely after turn action villain holds a weak ace or 88-KK. How often will you try to make him fold it on the river. How often are you bluffing here? Do you expect him to call you with JJ on the river?

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

This is a set almost 100% of the time.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

Calling here every single time definitely won`t hurt you much.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

Lady_Sharrow is never bluffing here, you're beat 100% of the time against this particular villain. Easy fold against most other tags as well.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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Since it seems fairly likely after turn action villain holds a weak ace or 88-KK. How often will you try to make him fold it on the river. How often are you bluffing here? Do you expect him to call you with JJ on the river?

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mostly he shoudl think the turn is a good card for me to bet pr + draw floats and if i bet them on the turn i would continue on the river, of course he calls with 88-KK some of the time and Ax most of the time

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

what the [censored] are static and kinetic ranges

i agree that folding is really exploitable since our hand is v. near the top of our range.

Re: Two Purrzz in a weird spot
 

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what the [censored] are static and kinetic ranges

i agree that folding is really exploitable since our hand is v. near the top of our range.

[/ QUOTE ]

static are hands that guys always have in places and kinetic are hands that guys sometimes have, based on tilt and table selection, etc