Feeling a little lost
 

Hey,

I don't play high stakes, but would like answers I can count on so I thought I'd post here.

I played poker casually for a couple years and am now making a real effort to improve my play. Over the last couple years I read the 11-12 standard NL books (2p2, Harrington, Gordon, etc.) and while they helped me go from bad to okay, none gave the information required to go from okay/decent to very good/great.

I consider myself an average player, and I scored 108 on the Donkey Test, affirming my estimation of my abilities (not sure how respected that test is, but I found it pretty interesting). Over the last couple years I'm a mild winner, though it's all just low-stakes mucking around. I have a 140s IQ, have a very good work ethic and have no problem understanding advanced mathematics, so I feel I could be substantially better than I currently am.

Now, my problem is I don't exactly know what I need to do to truly get better. I've read a bunch of books, I've played a fair amount. What I know I'm missing is a solid understanding of how to apply knowledge of ranges/combinations and equity and how to use that to select the highest EV lines, and how to factor in meta considerations. I feel this way for my pre- and post-flop game, though I think my pre-flop game isn't as leaky my post. This is, of course, the KEY to strong play and I understand why the information isn't readily available.

I'm currently studying Mathematics of Poker and have found it pretty enlightening. I now know a fair amount about ranging, combinations and how to correctly "solve" hands by ranging and calculating the EVs of all lines. Of course this requires PokerStove and Excel, but I can do it.

Now, if I were a savant, I'd be golden. Unfortunately I need a calculator to do the work. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] So, is the path to greatness for us mortals simply solving a bunch of hands for different situations so we can then recognize similar situations at the table and also find in those solutions heuristic principles that can be easily remembered and applied?

I do realize that there is data that the good players simply won't give as it would be bad for business, and I'm not asking for any handouts. I'd simply like to know if I'm going in the right direction or not?

If you've read this far and have some advice, I appreciate it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PS. Even if I were good enough, I wouldn't play high stakes. I have a successful business and see poker as a hobby and intellectual pursuit/challenge--I just hate being bad or mediocre at things. I either want to be good or I quit, haha.

Re: Feeling a little lost
 

When you play you'll hear 3 voices. First is usually telling you to do whats most satisfying (natural for you), the second will be logic (dave, phil, bill, etc).

The third is your instincts - or subconscious if you will. It is factoring things in that you can only half explain. Timing? is the guy tilting? Whats my image? Is this his rent money? Is he a mouth breather? Is this daddy's money?

use ur brain more when ur away from the table and use ur gut when your at the table. Becareful to remember not to do what feels satisfying (calling to much if ur an action junky and folding to much if ur a nit).

Everyone knows this at heart, but results make us doubt. GL and dont cut into my ev

Re: Feeling a little lost
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you play you'll hear 3 voices. First is usually telling you to do whats most satisfying (natural for you), the second will be logic (dave, phil, bill, etc).

The third is your instincts - or subconscious if you will. It is factoring things in that you can only half explain. Timing? is the guy tilting? Whats my image? Is this his rent money? Is he a mouth breather? Is this daddy's money?

use ur brain more when ur away from the table and use ur gut when your at the table. Becareful to remember not to do what feels satisfying (calling to much if ur an action junky and folding to much if ur a nit).

Everyone knows this at heart, but results make us doubt. GL and dont cut into my ev

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply. Using instinct at the table of course makes sense as it's impossible to do the math you'd do off the table, but one's instincts are pretty useless if he doesn't have a sound mathematical understanding of the game (I would think). If the person can't even determine +EV lines off the table, who cares what his instincts are, right?

I would think that honing one's instincts means solving hands and strategies against certain ranges, which then comes back subconsciously when actually playing.

I may be wrong though, which is why I'm posting. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Feeling a little lost
 

It sounds like you've got a real bad case of Fancy Play Syndrome. All you have to do is play tight and valuetown people. That'll keep working till u want to play in bad 10/20 and 25/50 games.

Re: Feeling a little lost
 

lol, dont listen to that guy

Re: Feeling a little lost
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply. Using instinct at the table of course makes sense as it's impossible to do the math you'd do off the table, but one's instincts are pretty useless if he doesn't have a sound mathematical understanding of the game (I would think). If the person can't even determine +EV lines off the table, who cares what his instincts are, right?

I would think that honing one's instincts means solving hands and strategies against certain ranges, which then comes back subconsciously when actually playing.

I may be wrong though, which is why I'm posting. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. i dint say not to do the reading n studying. I read more than the avg pro. The problem trying to play by the book instead just applying the advice to your current style. I think its common for players of your profile to hear the instinct and over ride it with some out of context advice, like "dont go broke in an unraised pot" but you've seen this guy stack off with garbage 5 times already, etc.

Re: Feeling a little lost
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply. Using instinct at the table of course makes sense as it's impossible to do the math you'd do off the table, but one's instincts are pretty useless if he doesn't have a sound mathematical understanding of the game (I would think). If the person can't even determine +EV lines off the table, who cares what his instincts are, right?

I would think that honing one's instincts means solving hands and strategies against certain ranges, which then comes back subconsciously when actually playing.

I may be wrong though, which is why I'm posting. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. i dint say not to do the reading n studying. I read more than the avg pro. The problem trying to play by the book instead just applying the advice to your current style. I think its common for players of your profile to hear the instinct and over ride it with some out of context advice, like "dont go broke in an unraised pot" but you've seen this guy stack off with garbage 5 times already, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I understand. I actually don't approach the game an in overly-academic fashion, I just like to understand the mathematical underpinnings of good decision making. If you know a guy has a tendency to stack off lightly, then the right decision of calling lightly could be justified mathematically.

Re: Feeling a little lost
 

This shouldn't be in HSNL.

Re: Feeling a little lost
 

Being totally straight with you Sean, it comes across as pretty arrogant that you go straight in and post this in the HSNL forum. There seems to be one post a month here that starts the same way as yours, and they normally get berated for it. I'm suprised this post hasn't been moved yet. There are great thinkers & posters all over this site and you would probably get a much better response by posting in an appropriate forum.... like beginners or maybe midstakes.

This forum (HSNL) is - to use a fashionable word - very "polarised" and the content tends to be either amazingly good or atrociously appalling. And the best content tends to be very specific to very tough situations versus great players in online high stakes games, and as such the advice is actually sub-optimal or plain wrong if misapplied to other games.

Anyway.... apologies for the rant. It sounds like your taking the right approach.

The truth is that the state of poker books for NLHE isn't great and they can only take you so far. I would advise just reading the hell out of the mid-stakes forum for the next year or two. Seeing how different people think and approach the game is the best way to learn, and I honestly think this site is the greatest learning tool for poker ever. Signing up for one of the video content sites (cardrunners/stoxpoker etc) is also a good idea. Then maybe think about coaching.

Re: Feeling a little lost
 

[ QUOTE ]
Being totally straight with you Sean, it comes across as pretty arrogant that you go straight in and post this in the HSNL forum. There seems to be one post a month here that starts the same way as yours, and they normally get berated for it. I'm suprised this post hasn't been moved yet. There are great thinkers & posters all over this site and you would probably get a much better response by posting in an appropriate forum.... like beginners or maybe midstakes.

This forum (HSNL) is - to use a fashionable word - very "polarised" and the content tends to be either amazingly good or atrociously appalling. And the best content tends to be very specific to very tough situations versus great players in online high stakes games, and as such the advice is actually sub-optimal or plain wrong if misapplied to other games.

Anyway.... apologies for the rant. It sounds like your taking the right approach.

The truth is that the state of poker books for NLHE isn't great and they can only take you so far. I would advise just reading the hell out of the mid-stakes forum for the next year or two. Seeing how different people think and approach the game is the best way to learn, and I honestly think this site is the greatest learning tool for poker ever. Signing up for one of the video content sites (cardrunners/stoxpoker etc) is also a good idea. Then maybe think about coaching.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I understand how it looks...I guess I wasn't aware of the etiquette. I'm actually not too familiar with the various forums, but all my other posts have been in Beginners and Poker Theory. I just was having trouble getting my question answered. I have Stox and CR memberships and actually just got a reply from Bryce on Stox, which was cool of him. Sorry for the post here.

My issue with simply reading other players' posts--and I may be wrong--is that without a true understanding of the mathematical fundamentals of ranging and finding +EV lines, how can I evaluate people's opinions? How can I know who has and doesn't have that knowledge? I wouldn't really be interested in listening to those that don't. And for those that do have the knowledge, I value their opinions but without my own understanding of the math, the learning process takes much longer as I'm basically trying to extrapolate and deduce the cause (principles of why) from the effect (the action taken). Just learning the principles first is much faster. :P

Anyways, my apologies for the atrocious clutter post, haha. I figured I'd probably get flamed, but also may get some kind of answer. +EV post, haha.