Stud hi call down with two pair
 

I'd appreciate advice on all streets.
Opponent is unknown, i have just sat down before this hand.
Should i even play my small pair in early position?
Would 5th be an easy fold if i had only a pair of 9s?
What do you think, would villain put me on after i call his raise?
Is river a fold getting 10:1?
Sorry for all those questions, i'm pretty inexperienced.
Thanks!


7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.40, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (2.90 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds

5th Street - (3.45 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

6th Street - (7.45 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.45 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (11.45 BB - $45.80)

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

Every street is an easy FOLD

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
Every street is an easy FOLD

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? I should just c/f two pair on 4th?

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

I would have folded3rd as EP and no kicker.

I would be kicking myself on 4th as why did I play 3rd and have all these callers.

%th street is interesting as he raises you. First, I thought he hit a straight, but don't think this is the case as 3 of the 9s are out and also this looks like thinning the field to get heads up.

Now he has either paired the 5 for two pair lower than yours or has a big pocket pair and feeling thinning can happen now. As such I would call down 6th and the river.

If nothing else you get information.

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

You compounded your 3rd street mistake by betting out. Check and see what the board does, your only options are CR or fold, never a call. The end results of these hands are always lousy. A cheap check/down win or a big payoff. The cost/reward is always against you. Every time you make a play, you have to take into consideration your future actions or if you like, how the hand will play out to your advantage. This hand is a dead end.

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

Third is an easy fold. Two small pair is a very difficult hand to play well, and you're better off avoiding situations where you're likely to get trapped for a bunch of bets with it. On fourth, with one of your full house outs showing, I would check and hope that they let me fill up for free. When you get raised on fifth street, most $2/4 players are going to have your two little pair crushed. I'm guessing he has a straight or perhaps a set. You're getting about 6.5:1 to call his raise, and it's more than 11:1 against your filling up on sixth, where you are likely to have to call another bet. There really is no reason to put money into this pot at any point.

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
On fourth, with one of your full house outs showing, I would check and hope that they let me fill up for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should i assume i dont have the best hand at that moment or is it cause i wont get many players to fold for just one bet and it is too likely i get outdrawn at some point in the hand? Should i bet if the pot were smaller?

[ QUOTE ]
When you get raised on fifth street, most $2/4 players are going to have your two little pair crushed. I'm guessing he has a straight or perhaps a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the way i played it, is a thinking villain putting me on two pair?
I didnt believe him the straight, cause he would have to have exactly 86 in the hole (i dont think he'd play 873) and felt he is raising cause his board looks kinda scary or he may have made two pair and thinks it's good.

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

Your two pair is probably the "best" hand on fourth street. The problem is that, with four opponents, it is unlikely to be the best hand on the river. Someone is probably going to make a better hand, and meanwhile it is difficult for you to improve. It isn't the size of the pot so much as the size of the field.

Your opponent has played his hand exactly as many players would have if he had 86 in the hole. He might also have played rolled Sevens or pocket Fives this way. The fact of the matter remains that most players at this level will have two small pair crushed when they raise fifth street, regardless of the previous action or what's showing.

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

As noted, your pair is small, your kicker sucks, fold Third.

Nobody has to put you on two pair to play correctly against you. A pair bigger than nines isn't ever a terrible dog against you and many hands can have you drawing super thin from Fourth on. Playing two small into a crowd is a disaster.

Two small makes money by getting heads-up and calling down against a lone big pair that feels compelled to put money in the pot. I agree with PCPA that check/raising on Four is a good option if the bet comes from your right, but it would be terrible if the bet comes from your left and is called ahead of you. In that case, you have to fold.

Save the headache and fold on Third.

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

Small pairs are playable in the right circumstances when you know what you are doing. Small pairs with brick kickers go into the muck without thinking.

Fold third, check-fold or check-raise fourth, depending on who doest the betting. check-fold the later streets.

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

These hands are a leak of mine as well. I have a hard time mucking a live garbage hand like this, but when you don't you face this issue quite a bit.

Once you've played the hand, I probably play it the same way, and the vast majority of the time you will be shown a better hand at the end.

You could fold 5th, too. I always convince myself that they're raising two small pair. They rarely are, though [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

About the only other thing to try is to check-raise 4th, to try and thin the field a little, but that isn't going to work all that much either.

Folding third is the right answer. Sadly, I usually play it the same as you (as long as my hand is completely live).

I'm pretty good at sucking out on the river though [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

Thanks for all the answers.

Results: Villain had 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] - 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: Stud hi call down with two pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
check-fold or check-raise fourth, depending on who does the betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is very important. if you think you are going to get lots of callers on 4th when you bet, then dont bet. even though you most probably have the best hand atm, your are not likely to end up with it. if a bet comes from a player behind you, you could check raise to thin the field. if a player bets and there are several/any callers, muck it. 2 small pair in a multiway pot in stud is bad stuff.

you save all this trouble by doing the best thing of all...folding 3rd.