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-   -   Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=555971)

BluffTHIS! 11-29-2007 12:53 PM

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 
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The Arabs were focusing on math and science while Europeans were focusing on crusades, inquisitions, and church dogma.

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Get your history straight. The first crusade was in response to Moslem attacks on the Byzantine Empire and persecution of Christian pilgrims in the Holy Land. And virtually every country at that time that was Moslem was conquered and converted by military force.

andyfox 11-29-2007 12:57 PM

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 
Wouldn't that be an argument for relocating the Jews? If they're a smaller population, and have been able to contribute so mightily despite that, they would likely be more resilient when they were transfered than the more numerous and less intellectually accomplished Palestinians.

And it's not the "Muslims" that are involved here. It is the Palestinians. They're not 25% of the world's population.

andyfox 11-29-2007 01:14 PM

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 
My reading of the history of the issue is that the Zionists are the bad guys and the Palestinians are the bad guys. Abba Eban's joke that the Palestinians never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity seems correct. But the Zionists always treated the natives like sh*t, from the very beginning. Achad Ha'am, a hundred years ago, accurately predicted what the result of such treatment would be. Most of the tactics of Middle East terrorism were introduced into the arena by the Zionists in the 1930s.

In my mind, though, all of this is ancient history. It will take statesmanship and courage to try to move beyond the damage that has been done. Attitudes like the OP's are what keep that from occurring. I note that thousands of Israelis demonstrated on the day of the meeting at Annapolis, chanting "death to the Arabs." An attitude that we're the good guys and they're the bad guys is guaranteed to lead to oblivion.

Goater 11-29-2007 01:26 PM

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 
Where do I start? Did you even read my posts in this thread?


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other than killing everyone, even though felix is a hair away from that conclusion, you can pretty much switch every instance of Jew and Palestinian in the above quote to make up the general view in this thread.

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no, you cant. until you provide evidence for this, insread of just repeating it, I wont respond. Please provide any links/evidence you have.

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israel has done no harm?

israel is entitled to something, they aren't entitled to everything they want just because those influencing the government thought its their god given right.

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Read my posts. I have never said Israel has done no harm and I, nor the vast majority of Israelis believe that Israel should get "everything". Why do you think that successive Israeli govenments have been parties that favour a 2 state solution? Oh, I forgot - you believe there is a secret, mysterious group of mad religious jews that "influence" the workings of the democracy.

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oh the government of the non existent Palestinian state?

the official media doesnt have to be equal either. im not saying both sides are equal in crimes or distortion by any extent. both sides have dirty records on both counts though. im saying to over generalize either side is a big mistake.

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yes, the governement of the not yet existant Palestinian state. The Palestinians have a government and an official media. You dispute this? When have I generalised? Generalising is what you are doing in every post.


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you also seem to be saying that all arabs are responsible for the crimes of the few but this shouldnt be true for jews?

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Please refer me to where I have said this.

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the problem with your analysis is you completely ignore the people on the other end but have full compassion for every israeli issue.

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Again, please, please read my posts in this thread. I absolutely do not ignore the Palestinian grievances. I have said many times that I fully understand why the Palestinians hate the Israelis and I certainly believe that Israel has made many mistakes.


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either way, the politics have been heavily influenced by religious fanatics and a lot of the secular israelis are very pissed off about it. I also dont think they are necessarily evil masterminds.

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No, the politics have not been heavily influenced by religious fanatics. What is your reason for saying this? Is it something your family has told you? Not "necessarily" evil masterminds? Seriously, you sound like a conspiracy theory nut.

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i just dont think you a realizing that there is another side and they have very much of the same claims

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Im now begging - PLEASE read my posts in this thread where i explicitly state that I fully appreciate that the Palestinians have legitimate claims and grievances.

You have also not answered the questions I asked in my previous reply to you.

Zygote 11-29-2007 01:43 PM

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 
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Where do I start? Did you even read my posts in this thread?

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i have not. im only informed of the things discussed within our exchange. i will go through the thread in a bit and am sorry if ive misrepresented your opinions.

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no, you cant. until you provide evidence for this, insread of just repeating it, I wont respond. Please provide any links/evidence you have.


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i shouldnt have made a comment about the whole thread when i was really only referring to what i could see from felix's and bluffthis' posts. when i go through the thread later though maybe ill find more.

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Why do you think that successive Israeli govenments have voted for parties that favour a 2 state solution?

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for one governments dont always act on behalf of the public. aside, i agree with you that israelis for the most part agree with me that the coutry made a big mistake with the how they've dealt with the territories.

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yes, the governement of the not yet existant Palestinian state. The Palestinians have a government and an official media. You dispute this? When have I generalised? Generalising is what you are doing in every post.


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i dont dispute this but since they've yet be treated like a sovereign state they obviously will constantly preach very harsh things since they've made many promises to their people.

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No, the politics have not been heavily influenced by religious fanatics. What is your reason for saying this? Is it something your family has told you? Not "necessarily" evil masterminds? Seriously, you sound like a conspiracy theory nut.

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im sayin this because its true. religious people get major exemptions and subsidies from the government. the major unjustified land expansions were the result of their lobby. how do you deny this?

Goater 11-29-2007 01:58 PM

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 
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i have not. im only informed of the things discussed within our exchange. i will go through the thread in a bit and am sorry if ive misrepresented your opinions.

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fair enough - it just frustrates me when people assume that you have to be either totally on one side or the other.


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i dont dispute this but since they've yet be treated like a sovereign state they obviously will constantly preach very harsh things since they've made many promises to their people.

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Being a sovereign state is no guarantee of moderation - the majority of the arab world has official media that spouts the most disguisting anti-semitism.


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religious people get major exemptions and subsidies from the government. the major unjustified land expansions were the result of their lobby. how do you deny this?

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I dont deny that they have influence, I disagree on the extent. The state was founded on secular zionism and that remains the case today. There are certain highly vocal right wing religious groups and right wing secular groups. The fact that the religious groups get subsidies is certainly a huge point of contension for secular Israelis and something I am against, but it is irrelevant to the discussion. However, I disagree with your opinion that the state is somehow run by a behind the scenes group of religious fanatics. Im sure you know that there are many reasons Israelis believe that they should hold on to the territories that have nothing to do with a religious imperative.

SNOWBALL 11-29-2007 02:03 PM

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 
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Are you not aware that the IDF has killed thousands of palestinian civilians?

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When you harbour criminals and terrorists you can often expect to suffer. And when you actively support them, you can usually be assured of suffering. Funny how that works.

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So it IS ok for Cambodia to poison the US's drinking water until we extradite Kissinger. Thanks for answering that question.

BluffTHIS! 11-29-2007 02:23 PM

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 
Ball of [censored],

It must suck hard to be color blind and not be able to tell apples from oranges.

past actions<>ongoing actions

Case Closed 11-29-2007 03:02 PM

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 
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[ QUOTE ]
The Arabs were focusing on math and science while Europeans were focusing on crusades, inquisitions, and church dogma.

[/ QUOTE ]
Get your history straight. The first crusade was in response to Moslem attacks on the Byzantine Empire and persecution of Christian pilgrims in the Holy Land. And virtually every country at that time that was Moslem was conquered and converted by military force.

[/ QUOTE ]
Alright, that's very much true...and during that time science and math was thriving in their culture. I am not sure why you responded in such a way to my post. The European Catholic church used it's extensive power to squelch scientific research by any means possible. They withheld from the world some of the greatest minds of all time.

All I am trying to say is that the Arab world has had their fair share of scientific advancements in the history of the world. These things seem to flow in their own way that I don't understand. For a long time it was America who was at the forefront of this stuff, it seems as though China and the rest of South East Asia will be the leaders in that avenue for the near future.

Goater 11-29-2007 03:02 PM

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 
I understand your position and agree that attitudes like the OP dont help. One thing though - its true that a few thousand Israelis protested the meetings (I havnt heard the chants "death to the arabs"). They are not the majority. Its my opinion that they would not represent an obstacle to an agreement between the two sides as the majority of Israelis wish to see a peace process. I dont think this is the case on the Palestinian side. Hamas and its supporters, of course, wont even discuss a peace deal. In classic Hamas style, today they even demanded that the UN rescind the 1947 partition decision! A huge proportion of differing Palestinian groups, due in large part to the education and indoctrination, wont even recognise Israel inside the 1967 borders, demand the majority of Jerusalem if any deal is made and, most importantly demand the right of return - something that Israel could never allow under any circumstances. These are bigger problems than the Israeli opposition to the meetings.

I am for a Palestinian state but against the meetings at the moment. As I stated earlier, anyone who thinks that any progress will be made with the weakest Israeli Prime Minister ever, the weakest Palestinian leader ever and the most unpopular US President ever is dreaming. They are all doing this for their own personal reasons. I think that someone can support the 2 state solution in principle and be against the curent farce and thats the position of quite a few Israelis.

If no harm could come of this then Id say go for it - why not. But as we have seen in the past, every time something like this happens the resulting violence is catastrophic. This is not the time for peace processes involving these individuals.


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