$22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

I had played pretty tight early on and the majority of the players are also fairly tight.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 (t3420)
MP2 (t1865)
CO (t1710)
Button (t1455)
SB (t1420)
BB (t1425)
Hero (t1200)
UTG+1 (t1005)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero is confused...</font>

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

ship it in without much hesitation.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

Is 77 the cutoff hand to push here? 77+ AJs+ seem right?

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

maybe one notch down (66+, ATs+ AJo).

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

cutof for me.

I would not push 66 and even 77 might be bad with 7 player behind

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

Depends on the skill level of your opponents.
If they seem to be weak, I'll fold hoping for a better spot.
If they are good, I'll shove it, especially if it is very likely that we get attacked next 2 hands in the blinds.
If the blinds will rise up soon, I'm also more inclined to shove it.

Basical, my arguments are for any pair. But of course, 22-55 are slightly -EV, 66-88 +/-0 EV but given the bad situation we have very o.k. and 99+ is +EV.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

I shove here w/ 88/99+ (depending on table). 77 is a little loose with it being 8 handed

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

77 is very close, OP, but simple ICM problem...

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
77 is very close, OP, but simple ICM problem...

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No, it is not a simple ICM problem. ICM will tell you that it is close btw.

The decision depends more on what edge you guess you have on these opponents?! How game will go on when you will be in the blinds and BU (can you steal with about 5BBs or not). How fast is the structure. When blinds raise up next time, you'll be in UTG or BB or whatever? (Will they attack you).

How likely is it if you gamble now to get an also soft SnG or even more softer one just by registrating now.

What is your BR-management, probably with 20BI I fold, with 120 I definitly push, inbetween ?? What is probably the BR-Management for your regulars in this game. Can they pushed around? Or not. Are they multitabling (thus not recognicing how short you are when you push)

So, there are a lot of factors outside of ICM to evaluate this hand. So it isn't an easy ICM problem IMHO for at least.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

All of which the OP knows better than us. He didn't post any other information so my reply was based on his post.

You shouldn't be playing at the level if you are concerned with your BI amount, that shouldn't change your game.

Moreover, it's been discussed ad nauseam that we want about a .5 edge especially at a 22.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

That said, if the blinds are going up, I would push. That is an additional factor to consider but you shouldn't be in the habit of guessing for the OP if they are.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]

Moreover, it's been discussed ad nauseam that we want about a .5 edge especially at a 22.

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That is so sick. You don't get 0.5 edge on average. Villain would need to do a big mistake at bubble and you should be the one who profits of it. Given, how likely it is to be still in SnG when 4-5 players are in, how likely it is that Villain is making a very huge mistake, how likely it is that we profit of it and how likeyly it is that we will make money of that, multiple all this factors give's us a small edge, probably up to 0.3, but never enough to wait for a good enough hand (that compensates for all unlikeleness of abough) to 0.5.

And in addition we have here, for a 22 relativly deep, still 7 opponents, probably, the 4-5 guys that survive to bubble are tough. So, here given up more than 0.15 is so sick, I even would gamble here with any 0.xx advantage.

But be lucky with your decision, I enjoy that.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

Why is giving up .15 so sick? Taking that small of an edge just increases our variance when we can easily get large enough edges. .5 isn't a rule or anything, you can take any edge you want. It's a good place to go for though for someone who isn't sure of a play like this.

Be lucky with my decision? We're just talking, leave the smart ass remarks, thanks.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is giving up .15 so sick?

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Because in average, you don't get without massive reads a much higher edge IMHO. And in addition, playing fast here decreases average SnG-Time, so we can get in average in more +EV spots sooner, that makes it even more +EV.

[ QUOTE ]
Taking that small of an edge just increases our variance when we can easily get large enough edges. .5 isn't a rule or anything, you can take any edge you want. It's a good place to go for though for someone who isn't sure of a play like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you calculated how BAD the villains need to be to cover an 0.5 edge?? I did, and if at least one reg is at the table, it's not worth to think about.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

So basically OP shouldn't have to think twice about shoving this if he calcs it in ICM because he can take any edge.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
So basically OP shouldn't have to think twice about shoving this if he calcs it in ICM because he can take any edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, unless his villains are really very bad.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

Right, which is possible in a 22. Maybe we shouldn't pass up a .3+ edge though. I'm not at home so I don't know exactly how thin this hand is.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

I'm looking for a .3+ fwiw, but without a calculator I don't think we're quite getting that here. I'm thinking 88+, and I also probably shove AJo+, ATs+. Probably it should really be 88+, AJs+, Aqo+. I dunno, I suck today.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

I always thought most of our future edge came in pushing spots where it was close that our opponents would miss. Also increasing your stack increases your future edge, because you'll have more +EV spots with the bigger stack. Block theory lol. So I think you should take shoves whenever they are close to 0 unless you play with the same opponents often and are worried about metagame.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

FWIW, the remaining players seemed solid but I would say the majority won't be doing late position steals liberally. The play seemed more passive than it should be.

This is a regular speed SnG. We've played 6 hands at this blind level, so theres still about 7 minutes before it reaches 100/200.

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

im folding oop.....shoving otherwise
(im new to all this and trying to reply before I read experts post) so I am prolly mistaken

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
im folding oop.....shoving otherwise
(im new to all this and trying to reply before I read experts post) so I am prolly mistaken

[/ QUOTE ]
with this stack this is deffinatly a push or fold, cant make a standard raise here so being oop doesnt really make a difference, fwiw im pushing this but this is the lowest, prolly 77+ AJo+ A10s+

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

tks.
im learning.....icy

Re: $22, 77 UTG in tough spot
 

Its a unexploitable shove.
Also shove without Hesitation.