Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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This is crazy. A Texas man shot and killed two men who were breaking into his neighbor's home - while a 911 dispatcher was on the phone telling him to stay in his house. According to changes in Texas law, he might not be convicted of murder. I'm fully in favor gun ownership and the right to defend yourself, but this seems excessive.

If this guy walks, is the grand jury crazy?

Here's the full 911 call: Link

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Wow, sick. Down with black people ldo.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Where are all the civic leaders protesting Sean Taylor's death. They haven't caught the murder yet. Hmm I wonder why there isn't any outcry? Could it be that when caught he will be a brother?

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lol youtube

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Having listened to it, I'm pretty conflicted over this.

Obviously, he should have just stayed in his house. Whatever they were stealing was not worth the risk, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I don't get the sense from the tape that he went outside intent on killing someone. But the problem is that he's probably untrained, and you can hear the stress in his voice. While he probably didn't intend to commit murder, once he made the decision to go outside I'd say there was a high chance of him shooting someone.

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this guy walks, is the grand jury crazy?

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Not if they believe the men came into his yard.

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I'm fully in favor gun ownership and the right to defend yourself, but this seems excessive.

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I'm not. If this mouth breather had to use a bat he would have stayed home. Guns make killing people too easy.

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I'll also say this - listening to this tape, it's hard not to feel some empathy for him. Here's a guy who called the cops and just didn't want to see a crime go unpunished when he felt he could and should do something.

The result is tragic, but I listen to most of this tape and part of me understands where he's coming from. So often I think people feel powerless to defend themselves, and this guy obviously didn't want to feel that.

If you can balance that, somehow, against my thinking he never should have left the house, then that's my opinion on this mess.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

[censored], you just [censored] with the wrong bull. You should've learned your lesson on the [censored]' basketball court. But you [censored]' monkeys never get the message. My father gave me that truck [censored]! You ever shoot at fireman? You come here and shoot at my family? I'm gonna teach you a real lesson now [censored]. Put your [censored]' mouth on the curb.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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I'm fully in favor gun ownership and the right to defend yourself, but this seems excessive.

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I'm not. If this mouth breather had to use a bat he would have stayed home. Guns make killing people too easy.

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yep

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On the other hand, I don't get the sense from the tape that he went outside intent on killing someone.

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He actually says "I'm going to kill them."

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On the other hand, I don't get the sense from the tape that he went outside intent on killing someone.

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He actually says "I'm going to kill them."

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He also says "move and your dead" or something to that affect. But you're right, that's not going to sound good to a grand jury.

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I'm fully in favor gun ownership and the right to defend yourself, but this seems excessive.

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I'm not. If this mouth breather had to use a bat he would have stayed home. Guns make killing people too easy.

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Agree completely. Nice job by the operator, "Why don't you stay on the phone with me til we can get some help there." No sympathy for this [censored] idiot at all, "boom, you're dead!" Are [censored] serious? If this isn't a banner case for gun control I don't know what is.

James

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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On the other hand, I don't get the sense from the tape that he went outside intent on killing someone.

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He actually says "I'm going to kill them."

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He also says "move and your dead" or something to that affect. But you're right, that's not going to sound good to a grand jury.

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It's almost definitely "Boom, you're dead@!"

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

also, wow that the texas law says you can use deadly force to 'protect property'.

James

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ElSapo-

I don't know...

How do you claim self defense in a potential life threatening situation that you voluntarily entered? If his personal safety was really his top priority, he would have stayed inside.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

All,

Definitely recommend listening to the whole call before commenting. Really interesting to listen to.

Here's an article with more details on the event and the legal issues:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/5303222.html

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On the other hand, I don't get the sense from the tape that he went outside intent on killing someone.

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He actually says "I'm going to kill them."

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He also says "move and your dead" or something to that affect. But you're right, that's not going to sound good to a grand jury.

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It's almost definitely "Boom, you're dead@!"

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Newspapers (some at least, I've only read a couple) are reporting it as "Move and your dead" .... I dunno.

I'm curious to hear how more people feel. I just can't get behind the absolute assertion that the guy was wrong. And I really don't think this is a strong case for gun control, or at least, not as strong as some people seem to think.

The guy realy sounds to me like he felt he didn't have a choice - he felt duty-bound to try and stop the thieves. He may well be an idiot, and he may really have been wrong. But I listen to the tape and it's just not so simple for me.

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ElSapo-

I don't know...

How do you claim self defense in a potential life threatening situation that you voluntarily entered? If his personal safety was really his top priority, he would have stayed inside.

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I don't know what happens after he leaves the house and before the shooting. Yes, he made a mistake by leaving the house. I agree with that.

Legally though, and perhaps in his own morality, he felt he could and should try and stop them. Once that decision is made, the situation evolves.

Once he's outside and saying, "stop" then things happen. I don't know how it goes from there. But was he within his rights to try and stop them? I don't know. I think he has a strong case, and when I listen to the tape I hear a lot more than just an idiot with a gun.

Although, I think I also hear that part.

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I think he did feel duty bound to protect his neighbor's stuff. That's the problem. If they had been coming out of the house dragging a kicking and screaming wife in her night gown, it would be a hell of a lot different.

James

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All,

'He actually says "I'm going to kill them."'

From the call:

"You're gonna get yourself shot if you go outside of the house with a gun."

"You wanna bet? I'm gonna kill them"

That operator did a phenomenal job imo.

After the guy's statements of "The law has changed" "I'm not going to let them get away with it" and various other stuff, his "I had no choice they came in the front yard with me... They come right in my yard I didn't know what the **** was gonna do" statements seem pretty questionable to me.

Feels to me like the guy went out there w/ a pretty solid idea he was probably gonna shoot those guys.

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Newspapers (some at least, I've only read a couple) are reporting it as "Move and your dead" .... I dunno.

I'm curious to hear how more people feel. I just can't get behind the absolute assertion that the guy was wrong. And I really don't think this is a strong case for gun control, or at least, not as strong as some people seem to think.

The guy realy sounds to me like he felt he didn't have a choice - he felt duty-bound to try and stop the thieves. He may well be an idiot, and he may really have been wrong. But I listen to the tape and it's just not so simple for me.

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Do you really think the neighbor's VCR was worth the lives of two men? This guy did. He thought about it, the 911 operator urged him repeatedly to cool down, and then he decided that yes, he should kill (or run a very high risk of killing) two people to save his neighbor's stuff. That's evil and depraved. Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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I'm confused... Were the robbers armed? Or, did they attack him?

If not, I can't imagine any reasonable defense.

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Newspapers (some at least, I've only read a couple) are reporting it as "Move and your dead" .... I dunno.

I'm curious to hear how more people feel. I just can't get behind the absolute assertion that the guy was wrong. And I really don't think this is a strong case for gun control, or at least, not as strong as some people seem to think.

The guy realy sounds to me like he felt he didn't have a choice - he felt duty-bound to try and stop the thieves. He may well be an idiot, and he may really have been wrong. But I listen to the tape and it's just not so simple for me.

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Do you really think the neighbor's VCR was worth the lives of two men? This guy did. He thought about it, the 911 operator urged him repeatedly to cool down, and then he decided that yes, he should kill (or run a very high risk of killing) two people to save his neighbor's stuff. That's evil and depraved. Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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For the record, I mostly agree with you. I'm just not so sure it's s clear as you make it out to be.

Hypothetically, if he went out there to stop these guys and they lunged at him, as his lawyer says, what happens then? While he should have avoided the situation to begin with, that situation may have been legally created/entered.

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ElSapo-

I guess my biggest issue here is that he seemed very aware of what he was walking into and what the likely outcome would be. My opinion would probably be different if he had made some type of gut reaction to grab his gun and attempt to stop a robery in progress, but he didn't. His first thought was to call the police. Then, after being told to stay inside and being told the police were coming, he decided to take matters into his own hands. We can't know if he had already made up his mind about shooting the men as he left his house. I feel like we do know 2 things though:

1) His safety wasn't really his top priority, or he wouldn't have gone outside.
2) He can't fully claim that he was the only one in a position to stop the act, given that he was told the police were almost there.

I guess my whole point is that he tried to stop them because he wanted to, not because he had to or needed to. Knowing he was entering into a situation that he acknowledged would likely merit self defense, and taking it upon himself to do so, doesn't seem reasonable or seem like a valid defense.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Sapo,

You make some good points. I have mixed feelings about this case. It's definitely possible that his intent was to hold them under gunpoint once he went outside, but then things got very frantic in the heat of the moment and he panicked, quite possibly feeling some threat.

It seems unlikely that unarmed men would run towards him in that situation. But maybe they were running away through his yard already.

On the one hand, he put himself in this situation. On the other hand, he may have actually felt a real threat once he was in the situation. But I dunno, the call just makes me feel like he's pretty ready to just kill the guys.

Tough for me to come down strongly on one side or the other without knowing what exactly happened in the few seconds outside. Sounds like there were some words spoken before "Move and you're dead" but from the timing, it really doesn't sound like there was any warning, it was pretty much "Move and you're dead" BANG.

One thing to consider is that while in this case it seems like they were criminals, it seems pretty easy for friends pulling a prank on someone to get shot in a situation like this.

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Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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I disagree here.

I hate to be racist or value one person over another, but these 2 burglars arent exactly model citizens. They are a leech on society, and they are certainly going to rob someone else. Who knows if they are armed, and if they will harm someone else while robbing them?

I really can't blame someone for killing 2 thieves.

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I guess my whole point is that he tried to stop them because he wanted to, not because he had to or needed to. Knowing he was entering into a situation that he acknowledged would likely merit self defense, and taking it upon himself to do so, doesn't seem reasonable or seem like a valid defense.

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I think this is really important. There's a very strong argument that he created the situation himself. Now, you can also argue that that's complete BS - two thieves with criminal backgrounds created the situation.

But I actually agree with you, that essentially he put himself in a situation that very likely could lead to a need for violence. (Or even an unnecessary, kneejerk, nervous violent reaction)

I don't know how this will play out of course. I guess it just doesn't seem so clear to me. No, money and posessions are not worth someone's life. But I also understand the feeling that you should do something, to not feel helpless, to not want to sit there and wait while the police are still on the way.

Ugly situation.

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he also said something about if it had been the other neighbors that he knew very well he would have already been out there.

i think when he made the decision to go outside the chances of killing them was way higher than not killing them.

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I really can't blame someone for killing 2 thieves.

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Then do you think if the police had caught them, and they were found guilty of felony larceny, they should get the death penalty?

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Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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I disagree here.

I hate to be racist or value one person over another, but these 2 burglars arent exactly model citizens. They are a leech on society, and they are certainly going to rob someone else. Who knows if they are armed, and if they will harm someone else while robbing them?

I really can't blame someone for killing 2 thieves.

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What if the neighbor that he barely knew had wronged them criminally first? What if the guy actually knew these two guys, and was giving them his old vcr? What if these guys were delivery guys from circuit city who were coming to pick up a defective item?

There are reasons why we have laws against people taking the law into their own hands.

Also, if your 12 year old son stole a Playboy from a convenience store, and some other customer saw him and shot him, would you feel similarly that the death penatly was appropriate?

Just let the law sort it out, and down with [censored] idiots sentencing people to death for B&E on someone else's house.

James

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ElSapo-

I don't know...

How do you claim self defense in a potential life threatening situation that you voluntarily entered? If his personal safety was really his top priority, he would have stayed inside.

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so what you're saying is that if a hot chick wears a short skirt and a tube top and then walks around East Palo Alto at night, it's not rape if she gets raped.

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ElSapo-

I don't know...

How do you claim self defense in a potential life threatening situation that you voluntarily entered? If his personal safety was really his top priority, he would have stayed inside.

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so what you're saying is that if a hot chick wears a short skirt and a tube top and then walks around East Palo Alto at night, it's not rape if she gets raped.

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I think a better analogy would be a hot chick going inside the private residence of a known sex offender, then claiming she had to kill him before he assaulted her.

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ElSapo-

I don't know...

How do you claim self defense in a potential life threatening situation that you voluntarily entered? If his personal safety was really his top priority, he would have stayed inside.

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so what you're saying is that if a hot chick wears a short skirt and a tube top and then walks around East Palo Alto at night, it's not rape if she gets raped.

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This analogy seems absolutely terrible. If I go to kill somebody, and they start fighting back, I don't see how that changes what I've done from murder to self-defense.

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This guy is a hero. Now we can't know exactly what happened in the front yard but he definitely gave those criminals a warning to stop before he shot them. He also said they lunged at him. He sounds like a law abiding citizen so I'm inclined to believe him. He was on his own property protecting himself. Why should he let a few low life thugs keep him from walking outside his own home? I'm sure his neighbors and the entire neighborhood is very thankful as well. Now all the criminals know that those people look out for each other and have guns. Better to stay away from robbing in that neighborhood.

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I think a better analogy would be a hot chick going inside the private residence of a known sex offender, then claiming she had to kill him before he assaulted her.

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Yea I see what you're saying here and it makes lots of sense. Once those criminals trespassed on the shooter's property, the property became the criminals' property and not the property of the shooter.

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This guy is a hero. Now we can't know exactly what happened in the front yard but he definitely gave those criminals a warning to stop before he shot them.

** How do you know this ** ??

He also said they lunged at him. He sounds like a law abiding citizen so I'm inclined to believe him.

** lol?**


He was on his own property protecting himself. Why should he let a few low life thugs keep him from walking outside his own home? I'm sure his neighbors and the entire neighborhood is very thankful as well. Now all the criminals know that those people look out for each other and have guns. Better to stay away from robbing in that neighborhood.

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Can't tell if this is a level or not.

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Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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I disagree here.

I hate to be racist or value one person over another, but these 2 burglars arent exactly model citizens. They are a leech on society, and they are certainly going to rob someone else. Who knows if they are armed, and if they will harm someone else while robbing them?

I really can't blame someone for killing 2 thieves.

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i used to think you seemed like an ok guy. this post is horrific.

your point is not that they posed an imminent threat and the guy had to defend himself. your point is that they were bad people so who cares if someone shoots them. just wow.

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Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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I disagree here.

I hate to be racist or value one person over another, but these 2 burglars arent exactly model citizens. They are a leech on society, and they are certainly going to rob someone else. Who knows if they are armed, and if they will harm someone else while robbing them?

I really can't blame someone for killing 2 thieves.

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Well, you're not really valuing one person over another, you're valuing a Tivo over two people. If there was a person being threatened here it's a totally different conversation.

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Boris,

What if the guy felt no danger at all, but knew that if he did not shoot them the guys would escape.

If his intent was solely to shoot them to keep them from getting away with this theft (ie: he was protecting his neighbor's property, not himself), would you still consider him a hero?

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I don't understand some of you guys at all, except from an emotional "Violence is always bad" perspective. I especially don't get the gun control angle. Shotguns are legal everywhere. I live in one of the most restrictive jurisdictions anywhere and people have them.

The guy called the cops. The cops weren't going to get there in time. If he was watching his neighbor getting raped, voluntarily "entering a potentially life-threatening situation" would have been perfectly justified. Refusing to enter a dangerous situation you are completely prepared to deal with is pussified.

The fact that it was thievery and not rape or murder he was preventing complicates things. If the theives were trying to burn the house down, I'd have intervened. Light his car on fire, I'd have intervened. But if the car was a $200 beater, maybe not, because I would understand the possibility of having my hand forced and people dying over somebody getting away with torching a beater isn't worth it to me. But I could understand somebody else coming to a different conclusion.

With a home invasion, it's a little confusing, but I can certainly understand where someone might come to the decision of stopping the theives.

I also understand his reaction to the 911 operator who (foolishly, IMO) said "You're going to get shot." Someobdy with a shotgun and the drop on the theives is probably not going to get shot. "It's not worth somebody getting killed over, we're almost there" might have played better.

Once he went outside, I have no idea what happened apart from the fact that it appears he told them to stop. Given he called the cops, and gave a verbal warning, and is the guy looking out for his neighbor rather than robbing him, he certainly gets the benefit of the doubt from me. If it turns out they froze and he just murdered them, he should pay the price for that. But jumping to that conclusion makes zero sense to me given the facts. They probably did something stupid and got shot. That's unfortunate, but their own fault. Don't be stupid.

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I'm confused... Were the robbers armed?

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Robbers by definition are armed. Otherwise they are burglars.