Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

BvB, stacks 100BBs. NL100.

4 fold
Hero raises to $4 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB calls

Flop 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero bets $4
BB calls (15/12/2.6)

Turn 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets $12
Villain raises to $36
Hero calls hyachahyacha

River Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villain bets $54
Hero calls

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

Because you want to make $, right?

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

honestly on the river you probably arent beating him ever

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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honestly on the river you probably arent beating him ever

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two pairs without the Q? Slowplayd AA/KK? Even missed flush draws? Then again if I might as well push the turn if I call the river...

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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two pairs without the Q?

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Are you saying 45 or some random pp? I doubt he even plays 45 given his stats and preflop and 45 probably doesn'y play flop/turn like this and definitely doesn't play river like this. Same goes with any other pp regarding turn/river play.

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Even missed flush draws?

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The fact that you have the only flush draw makes it even more unlikely he has one. He's pretty passive so I doubt he check raised the turn here with a flush draw after you fire two streets. I also don't really see what he can float oop that then picks up a flush draw on the turn.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

WTF, turn is obv an easy call. You are getting all the monnies if a non-pairing spade falls.

Obv, I'm not calling the river unless I hit something. The Q is probably your worst payoff card but I still pay off. Maybe you can find a fold there. We need 40% equity vs his range. It's probably pretty optimistic to assume worse Q's, counterfeited 2-pair and random bluffs to be 40%. Maybe river should be a fold?

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

You still beat a fair amount of hands in his range... I don't think you could ever fold on the river once you called the turn

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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I don't think you could ever fold on the river once you called the turn

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Uhmm. Why not?

I could call this but then again I'm a station. Slowplayed AA/KK? Frustrated bluff with random crap? 99-JJ turned into a bluff? Hmm wait. Just saw his stats. I fold river (when I'm sober).

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

I usually check the turn here partly for pot control, partly because hes pretty tight and somewhat aggressive(likely to bet river) and because i don't want to get blown off my draw.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

Why not C/C the turn?

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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Why not C/C the turn?

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Because thats a pretty great turn card for us, and villain hasn't shown signs of having a better hand.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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Why not C/C the turn?

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Because thats a pretty great turn card for us, and villain hasn't shown signs of having a better hand.

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yeah but betting still does turn your hand into a bluff doesnt it?

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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We need 40% equity vs his range.

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40%, 29%, who's counting.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

C/call on turn is a good line. Better than bet/call against most.

As played, trips+blind battle+some missed draws=call. But you don't beat anything legit that villain could have. So I can definitely see a fold against some. On paper.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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C/call on turn is a good line. Better than bet/call against most.

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Please tell me/us your reasoning

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

The reason you call this, is because people are retards and bluff in retarded spots like this, i call river aswell, though your probably beat.

I think turnplay is pretty standard. You could argue for a river fold against this specific opponent, but a call isnt really that horrible, you do have three of a kind!

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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Please tell me/us your reasoning

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By double barrelling we fold out a lot of hands we beat and if he raises, we now go to the river with only a draw as the top pair value of our hand is lost.

By check/calling we let him bet with worse hands/draws, we still have decent top pair value going to the river and if he is ahead we still have outs.

If the turn checks through and we don't hit we can still get value from lesser one pair hands on the river.

If he's a real calling station and you never expect him to stab with worse, then bet/calling is better than c/calling. (But against that opponent you probably should fold river, here.)

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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We need 40% equity vs his range.

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40%, 29%, who's counting.

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I messed up the math (forgot to add our call to the pot)

28.6% to be exact.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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C/call on turn is a good line. Better than bet/call against most.

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Please tell me/us your reasoning

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Think about villains range of hands given his actions. What's his range if you bet and he calls? What about if you bet and he raises. And then if you check and he bets or just checks. Which of these scenarios gives you the highest equity?

Also think about if you bet, how villain can force you out of the pot on the turn by playing perfectly with a better hand (pushing) and how he almost can't (without overbetting) if we just check to him.

You won't get 3 streets of value from this type of villain with TPMK, so a turn bet is essentially turning your hand into a semi-bluff.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

I play it the same, even though I KNOW I should fold river.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

dude, its bvb and we have tpfd

c/c is stupid and results orientated

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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Because you want to make $, right?

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Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

LOLOLOL @ check/call.

Hero raises pf and is called.
Hero bets flop and is called.

Exactly when has villian showed strengh enough to check our top pair/fd?

River for me would be check/call. C/F is pretty gross.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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Exactly when has villian showed strengh enough to check our top pair/fd?

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Villain appearing weak is not a good reason to bet, it's a good reason to check. DUCY?

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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Exactly when has villian showed strengh enough to check our top pair/fd?

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Villain appearing weak is not a good reason to bet, it's a good reason to check. DUCY?

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Villian could easily have a draw, or a hand worse than ours. We might not be able to get any value on the river, so we should try and get it now. ALso, if we do hit our draw and villian wakes up with a hand, we want the pot to be as enticing as possible, so we bet the turn.

Best hand in villians range would b e 67, which we obv want to bet against. DUCY?

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

i just push the turn and don't care whether he folds or not. two queens, dawg. flush draw is a neat bonus i guess.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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Villian could easily have a draw, or a hand worse than ours. We might not be able to get any value on the river, so we should try and get it now. ALso, if we do hit our draw and villian wakes up with a hand, we want the pot to be as enticing as possible, so we bet the turn.

Best hand in villians range would b e 67, which we obv want to bet against. DUCY?

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Villain could have a lot of things and combo-draws are a pretty small % of that.

If we bet, villain will fold almost any hand we beat. If we bet, villain will raise most hands that beat us. If we check, villain will check behind some hands we beat, bet some that we do and bet those that we don't (but have plenty of equity vs).

Having it go check/check is only a disaster when villain has a very good draw like 76. We mitigate that lost value by getting more value from worse pairs that might pay off on the river cause they put us on a missed draw or whatever. Plus he might just bet our hand for us as a semi-bluff.

If we didn't have the FD then I'd def. say bet, but a lot of villains outs are counterfeited.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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i just push the turn and don't care whether he folds or not. two queens, dawg. flush draw is a neat bonus i guess.

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we dont have two queens on the turn.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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i just push the turn and don't care whether he folds or not. two queens, dawg. flush draw is a neat bonus i guess.

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we dont have two queens on the turn.

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yes you do.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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i just push the turn and don't care whether he folds or not. two queens, dawg. flush draw is a neat bonus i guess.

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we dont have two queens on the turn.

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i guess you should review your hand; or re-convert it?

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

you two suck















alright i misunderstood [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

seriously though, man. this hand you got is like having a set when you're heads up. there's draws on the board, lots of rag hands your opp could have, he'll just be floating you with trash a lot. you're not only going to get called by better hands if you 3b the turn. you're gonna get called by all kinds of stuff, and even when you are beat, you're usually not smashed.

i would seriously consider putting in a little time reading hands in the HU forum just to get a good idea the types of things those guys like to get their money in with 2 handed. i think more people should, really, because the ranges in some of these threads are pretty ridiculous imo.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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dude, its bvb and we have tpfd

c/c is stupid and results orientated

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Does it mean a bet/3 bet AI on turn?

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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i would seriously consider putting in a little time reading hands in the HU forum just to get a good idea the types of things those guys like to get their money in with 2 handed. i think more people should, really, because the ranges in some of these threads are pretty ridiculous imo.

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good thoughts.

but, does it make any difference that this is 6max and not HU (even though the hand is HU)? Don't most players/villains play their hand almost the same whether there are one or four villains? Do we expect that villains alter their playing style according to the number of villains even though most/some of us fail to do so?

(I'm having problems expressing myself in english, hope you get the point)

EDIT: or is it all the same since two random cards vs two random cards play the same whether its HU in 10max or in HU table. arrrgghhh


vittu puhuuko kukaan täällä suomea saatana kun en saa ajatusta irti [censored]

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

pushing turn is spew

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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pushing turn is spew

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any help is better than nothing but id really enjoy some line of thoughts to go with these advices

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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vittu puhuuko kukaan täällä suomea saatana kun en saa ajatusta irti [censored]

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Joo, voit sä koittaa suomeks, voin vaikka yrittää tulkata.. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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Exactly when has villian showed strengh enough to check our top pair/fd?


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He doesn't have to show strength. If we're ahead we can get money in other ways than betting the turn. You know, people float the flop with worse and bet the turn and we snap them off. We can make our hand seem weaker by better checking turn and betting river. Checking doesn't mean we are afraid that he has a better hand.

I think checking and betting turn are both fine and are villain/style dependent.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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Why not C/C the turn?

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Because thats a pretty great turn card for us, and villain hasn't shown signs of having a better hand.

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yeah but betting still does turn your hand into a bluff doesnt it?

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I find people make retarded call downs.

Re: Why do I keep calling these? Because I should? Tell me, please
 

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pushing turn is spew

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any help is better than nothing but id really enjoy some line of thoughts to go with these advices

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i think you're behind his range so why put more money in?