Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

After all the flack theism is rightfully getting for the suffering it causes the Pope fires back. Saying that atheism has lead to the "greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice"

He goes on to talk about Marxism, and it's Marx's dogma that cuased suffering not his atheism. Religious Dogma, Political dogma causing the greatest from of cruelty and violations of justice. Yup.

"A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God,"
Well duh pope, you ever think that because there isn't a good God? Everything I see can't be bad because of God, so it must be atheists.

"It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice," he wrote. "A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope." Terrible.

abc news

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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"A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God,"


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The inhabitants of this earth create the injustice and innocent suffering. The inhabitants of this earth have it in their power to eliminate it. Why should God be held responsible for its existence and mans choice not to eliminate it?

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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"A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God,"


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The inhabitants of this earth create the injustice and innocent suffering. The inhabitants of this earth have it in their power to eliminate it. Why should God be held responsible for its existence and mans choice not to eliminate it?

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]Well, Ratzinger is trying to blame it on atheism.

The pope also writes "We must do all we can to overcome suffering, but to banish it from the world is not in our power, Only God is able to do this."

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

Karl Marx was a great thinker and economist. While I don't fully agree with him, and especially don't agree with many of his current followers, I think blaming him for what Stalin did is just wrong.

People in the US and UK have been greatly brainwashed about Marx's ideas. I wonder how many of the people that think like you have actually read Marx's work.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Well, Ratzinger is trying to blame it on atheism.

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Perhaps he said thats because athiestic regimes have caused more suffering than theistic ones.

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The pope also writes "We must do all we can to overcome suffering, but to banish it from the world is not in our power, Only God is able to do this."

[/ QUOTE ]

Its in the power of man to eliminate innocent suffering(e.g. children straving because the invading army burned the crops). Its not in man's power to eliminate all natural suffering(e.g. children straving becuase a locust investation destroyed the crops)

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

Crusades, inquisition, Bible condoning slavery, racism, homophobia, etc.

I can't believe that in modern society this nonsense is given any respect at all.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

The pope is one of the worlds problems.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

ABC did a crappy job reporting that. Here is a more complete excerpt

"The atheism of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is -- in its origins and aims -- a type of moralism: a protest against the injustices of the world and of world history. A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering, and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God. A God with responsibility for such a world would not be a just God, much less a good God. It is for the sake of morality that this God has to be contested. Since there is no God to create justice, it seems man himself is now called to establish justice. If in the face of this world's suffering, protest against God is understandable, the claim that humanity can and must do what no God actually does or is able to do is both presumptuous and intrinsically false. It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice; rather, it is grounded in the intrinsic falsity of the claim. A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope. No one and nothing can answer for centuries of suffering. No one and nothing can guarantee that the cynicism of power, whatever beguiling ideological mask it adopts, will cease to dominate the world."

The Pope claims that athiesm is a type of moralism and then uses the arguments of an athiest to back that claim up.

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Bible condoning slavery

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Actually, The Bible not only condones but encourages everything you said and more. Murdering foreigners or unbelievers, stealing from them (goods, virgin girls, slaves), pillaging their cities, gang banging their gives wives; genocide, beating slaves; death toll for: adulterers, unmarried daughters that have had sex, and those who work on the sabbath, etc, etc....

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Well, Ratzinger is trying to blame it on atheism.

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Perhaps he said thats because athiestic regimes have caused more suffering than theistic ones.

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mao and stalin pale in comparison to the religious zealotry that destroyed so many lives. from the crusades to the holocaust to the opression in Sudan, religion taken too far has killed millions and millions lives lost due to a disagreement of faith. furthermore "atheist regimes" have mostly killed not because they are atheist, but for other political/social reasons, can you say the same of theist regimes?

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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"A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God,"


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The inhabitants of this earth create the injustice and innocent suffering. The inhabitants of this earth have it in their power to eliminate it. Why should God be held responsible for its existence and mans choice not to eliminate it?

Stu

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Ditto everything good, right?

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Well, Ratzinger is trying to blame it on atheism.

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Perhaps he said thats because athiestic regimes have caused more suffering than theistic ones.

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The pope also writes "We must do all we can to overcome suffering, but to banish it from the world is not in our power, Only God is able to do this."

[/ QUOTE ]

Its in the power of man to eliminate innocent suffering(e.g. children straving because the invading army burned the crops). Its not in man's power to eliminate all natural suffering(e.g. children straving becuase a locust investation destroyed the crops)

Stu

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Oh ok so God is still responsible for billions of death and hundreds of billions of people suffering. WHEW!!

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
"The atheism of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is -- in its origins and aims -- a type of moralism: a protest against the injustices of the world and of world history. A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering, and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God. A God with responsibility for such a world would not be a just God, much less a good God. It is for the sake of morality that this God has to be contested. Since there is no God to create justice, it seems man himself is now called to establish justice. If in the face of this world's suffering, protest against God is understandable, the claim that humanity can and must do what no God actually does or is able to do is both presumptuous and intrinsically false. It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice; rather, it is grounded in the intrinsic falsity of the claim. A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope. No one and nothing can answer for centuries of suffering. No one and nothing can guarantee that the cynicism of power, whatever beguiling ideological mask it adopts, will cease to dominate the world."

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That's some bad logic. Some really egregious reasoning.

Okay. If God is omniscient, and God is omnipotent, and God is omnibenevolent, and God created the world, then the world will not be rife with suffering, cruelty and injustice. But the world is rife with such, therefore God doesn't exist.

Now then. Humans aren't omni-anything. Nor did humans create the world. But humans can influence the world to some extent, in their own sloppy way. And the influences can accrue over time, resulting in a world with less cruelty, suffering, and injustice.

I don't know how the Pope conflates these two wholly separate arguments. Sadly, he favors rhetoric to intelligent discourse. But he does say one thing that's easy to smash. "The claim that humanity can and must do what no God actually does or is able to do is both presumptuous and intrinsically false." Uh, yeah. Atheists don't believe in any gods. The first argument isn't saying that an omnix3 God lacks the power to do good, it's saying that an omnix3 God doesn't exist. Popie even acknowledges this beforehand. So humanists aren't placing themselves above God, they are merely suggesting that we - human beings - are the most powerful entities in our immediate vicinity. And that therefore we have the best chance of improving things. Far from being presumptuous (much less intrinsically false), this follow logically from the premise that there is no God.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Oh ok so God is still responsible for...hundreds of billions of people suffering.

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Hundreds of billions? I think not, there hasn't been that many of us born yet. Anyways if you want to blame God for the fact that all humans at some point succumb to the rigors of the ecosystem go right ahead. I don't but I'm the type of guy who doesn't blame the Michelin Man when the tires on my car wear out either.

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Oh ok so God is still responsible for...hundreds of billions of people suffering.

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Hundreds of billions? I think not, there hasn't been that many of us born yet. Anyways if you want to blame God for the fact that all humans at some point succumb to the rigors of the ecosystem go right ahead. I don't but I'm the type of guy who doesn't blame the Michelin Man when the tires on my car wear out either.

Stu

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What are you talking about? Its not me who is blaming him, its you. You said God is responsible for natural occurances, just not man-made ones. So hunger and cold and disease and all that lot.

And sorry, I added an "s" in there, I meant hundred, not hundreds, I guess.

Although I suppose its safe to assume that pre-human primates suffered as well. They maybe were not the responsibility of God though?

Wow, actually, that animals feel pain at all is a pretty big deal right?

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Anyways if you want to blame God for the fact that all humans at some point succumb to the rigors of the ecosystem go right ahead. I don't but I'm the type of guy who doesn't blame the Michelin Man when the tires on my car wear out either.

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Did God create humans? Did God create the natural environment?

As for the Michelin Man, he can only create tires within certain parameters. He's not very powerful, see. His tires are subject to God's natural laws. And God chose to make entropy the basis of nature. So, if God exists, it is God's fault - not the Michelin Man's - when your tires wear out.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

Madnak,

The Pope is talking about the atheistic regimes that arose in the 19th and 20th century. Your wrote:

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So humanists aren't placing themselves above God, they are merely suggesting that we - human beings - are the most powerful entities in our immediate vicinity. And that therefore we have the best chance of improving things.

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Stalin and Mao would agree with you. The Pope is saying that when these regimes took God out of the equation, injustice and innocent suffering increased.

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

Stalin and Mao wouldn't agree with me. Stalin and Mao came from completely different directions - they weren't humanists. We can only say so much about their motivations, but their principles were as far from humanism as is possible.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Stalin and Mao wouldn't agree with me

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Sure they would, they were atheist. If they wouldn't agree with your statement that humans are the most powerful entities therefore have the best chance of improving things, where would they place their faith?

Stu

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

In themselves, not in the human race. In an elite group of authorities with no real philosophical basis.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
After all the flack theism is rightfully getting for the suffering it causes the Pope fires back. Saying that atheism has lead to the "greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice"

He goes on to talk about Marxism, and it's Marx's dogma that cuased suffering not his atheism. Religious Dogma, Political dogma causing the greatest from of cruelty and violations of justice. Yup.

"A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God,"
Well duh pope, you ever think that because there isn't a good God? Everything I see can't be bad because of God, so it must be atheists.

"It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice," he wrote. "A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope." Terrible.

abc news

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What do you expect? Seriously.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Karl Marx was a great thinker and economist.

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As a joke? He's one of the great spinmans for jackbooted state power.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Oh ok so God is still responsible for...hundreds of billions of people suffering.

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Hundreds of billions? I think not, there hasn't been that many of us born yet. Anyways if you want to blame God for the fact that all humans at some point succumb to the rigors of the ecosystem go right ahead. I don't but I'm the type of guy who doesn't blame the Michelin Man when the tires on my car wear out either.

Stu

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What is a 'god'?

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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I'm the type of guy who doesn't blame the Michelin Man when the tires on my car wear out either.

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Right, you can squarely blame your god for that!

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Madnak,

The Pope is talking about the atheistic regimes that arose in the 19th and 20th century. Your wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
So humanists aren't placing themselves above God, they are merely suggesting that we - human beings - are the most powerful entities in our immediate vicinity. And that therefore we have the best chance of improving things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stalin and Mao would agree with you. The Pope is saying that when these regimes took God out of the equation, injustice and innocent suffering increased.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]The same thing that makes us recognize Stalin and Mao as evil, is what is so evil about religion. It is not that they are atheists. It's that they demand your heart and your mind. They wish to have total control over every aspect of our lives private and personal. They want to have control over our sons and daughters. Our labor and our pleasure. We can give nothing short of obedience to them.

It's not because of atheism or because of a hopeful idea, that Stalin and religion is evil. You can put God into any totalitarian government and it's still evil. It's not lack of god or inclusion of god that make the numbing of the human spirit, the freedom which we enjoy destroyed, the pleasure that we desire dulled, offend our moral sense. These are sufficient reasons to be offended. If it comes from edicts by the Pope, or an atheist. The slavery of man is a great cruelty.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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"A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God,"


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The inhabitants of this earth create the injustice and innocent suffering. The inhabitants of this earth have it in their power to eliminate it. Why should God be held responsible for its existence and mans choice not to eliminate it?

Stu

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Ditto everything good, right?

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We assume it will be in the afterlife, where God is in direct control and man has no say anymore. But on earth, man has the free will to do what he wants within the confines of nature. To judge God on earth is foolishly premature.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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We assume it will be in the afterlife, where God is in direct control and man has no say anymore. But on earth, man has the free will to do what he wants within the confines of nature. To judge God on earth is foolishly premature.

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This from the guy who thinks most people are going to hell...

Uh, "within the confines of nature." Didn't God set up those confines? So why do "the confines of nature" actually result in incredible suffering (nature probably causes more suffering than man, or has historically)? Further, why do the confines of nature allow man great latitude in spreading awful pain, but limit his power to alleviate suffering?

You want to talk about man's sinful nature, but the dice are loaded.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

I dont see much to discuss here, the pope is an idiot.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Bible condoning slavery

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Actually, The Bible not only condones but encourages everything you said and more. Murdering foreigners or unbelievers, stealing from them (goods, virgin girls, slaves), pillaging their cities, gang banging their gives wives; genocide, beating slaves; death toll for: adulterers, unmarried daughters that have had sex, and those who work on the sabbath, etc, etc....

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ure supposed to pretend the brutal part of the bibles dont exist( or u can come up with "u have to understand the context in which was wriiten" bs )and only point out the good part of the bibles, then after u do that u say that if we all followed the bible the world would be a better place

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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We assume it will be in the afterlife, where God is in direct control and man has no say anymore. But on earth, man has the free will to do what he wants within the confines of nature. To judge God on earth is foolishly premature.

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Re: The "neo-atheist" thread...

Maybe it is time we stop "debating" this fantasyland nonsense and merely laugh that a 21st century human being from the most technologically advanced culture on the planet actually believes stuff like this. Or maybe we should cry, not sure which yet.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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I dont see much to discuss here, the pope is an idiot.

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Pretty harsh. I can only imagine what you would call people who opine after reading an 8 paragraph news article of a 76 page text.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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I dont see much to discuss here, the pope is an idiot.

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Pretty harsh. I can only imagine what you would call people who opine after reading an 8 paragraph news article of a 76 page text.

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Or perhaps have heard a tinsy eeensy bit about this 'pope' entity at some time prior in their lives.

luckyme

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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I dont see much to discuss here, the pope is an idiot.

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Pretty harsh. I can only imagine what you would call people who opine after reading an 8 paragraph news article of a 76 page text.

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The latest pope is setting the Catholic Church back a hundred years. I'd be embarrassed to have him as leader.

His denial of God given truths (the revelations of the natural world, the secular depths of ethics and morality) is particularly noticeable after John Paul II's wisdom in that area.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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We assume it will be in the afterlife, where God is in direct control and man has no say anymore. But on earth, man has the free will to do what he wants within the confines of nature. To judge God on earth is foolishly premature.

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This from the guy who thinks most people are going to hell...

Uh, "within the confines of nature." Didn't God set up those confines? So why do "the confines of nature" actually result in incredible suffering (nature probably causes more suffering than man, or has historically)? Further, why do the confines of nature allow man great latitude in spreading awful pain, but limit his power to alleviate suffering?


You want to talk about man's sinful nature, but the dice are loaded.

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Nature causes both pain and pleasure. I don't see how it is easier for man to spread awful pain than to alleviate the suffering he causes.

If an atheist is convinced that life on the whole is much more painful than pleasurable, I don't see why he would not commit suicide. It would be the reasonable thing to do.

It's this lack of conviction amongst atheists that fails to persuade most of humanity to their side.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We assume it will be in the afterlife, where God is in direct control and man has no say anymore. But on earth, man has the free will to do what he wants within the confines of nature. To judge God on earth is foolishly premature.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The "neo-atheist" thread...

Maybe it is time we stop "debating" this fantasyland nonsense and merely laugh that a 21st century human being from the most technologically advanced culture on the planet actually believes stuff like this. Or maybe we should cry, not sure which yet.

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Technology does not make one happy.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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We assume it will be in the afterlife, where God is in direct control and man has no say anymore. But on earth, man has the free will to do what he wants within the confines of nature. To judge God on earth is foolishly premature.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from the guy who thinks most people are going to hell...

Uh, "within the confines of nature." Didn't God set up those confines? So why do "the confines of nature" actually result in incredible suffering (nature probably causes more suffering than man, or has historically)? Further, why do the confines of nature allow man great latitude in spreading awful pain, but limit his power to alleviate suffering?


You want to talk about man's sinful nature, but the dice are loaded.

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Nature causes both pain and pleasure. I don't see how it is easier for man to spread awful pain than to alleviate the suffering he causes.

If an atheist is convinced that life on the whole is much more painful than pleasurable, I don't see why he would not commit suicide. It would be the reasonable thing to do.

It's this lack of conviction amongst atheists that fails to persuade most of humanity to their side.

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So the only thing stopping you from suicide is your religon. Sucks but maybe explains why you cling to it so desperately.

chez

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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We assume it will be in the afterlife, where God is in direct control and man has no say anymore. But on earth, man has the free will to do what he wants within the confines of nature. To judge God on earth is foolishly premature.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The "neo-atheist" thread...

Maybe it is time we stop "debating" this fantasyland nonsense and merely laugh that a 21st century human being from the most technologically advanced culture on the planet actually believes stuff like this. Or maybe we should cry, not sure which yet.

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Technology does not make one happy.

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Agreed. However, believing in fairy tales does have that effect on children, or those who think like children.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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So the only thing stopping you from suicide is your religon. Sucks but maybe explains why you cling to it so desperately.

chez

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From a long list of theist poster comments on here, it's also what keeps them from being sociopaths. Perhaps a psych test of some sort should be administered at puberty and the morbid states of mind get you admitted to a seminary for a year of therapeutic indoctrination.

luckyme

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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So the only thing stopping you from suicide is your religon. Sucks but maybe explains why you cling to it so desperately.

chez

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In context of what was being discussed this is a non sequitur, and you know it.

Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
 

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Pretty harsh. I can only imagine what you would call people who opine after reading an 8 paragraph news article of a 76 page text.

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Hey! You're being awfully dumb. How can you criticize valen for one small post, when he has a huge posting history? Have you read all of his posts so you have a basis to talk about him?

How about this - when you read one full page of pure idiotic drivel, reading the other 75 pages is stupid. I have better things to do with my time than wade through irrelevant hateful nonsense, and I've seen more than enough of it from this pope to know what his words are worth.