Angelo: Fastrolling
 

Surprisingly, I thought this article was pretty weak. I've heard great things about Angelo, but this one didn't impress. Most of it was pretty obvious, except for the stuff I didn't agree with :-) I would rather have heard of interesting ways to be polite and still get information, and ways to avoid being "angle shot".

For example, your opponent says he has some hand that you beat. You show, he mucks. You missed a great opportunity to find out if he was lying, and how he looks when he lies.

There was a 2+2 post not long ago in B&M where villain said "Kings", then proceeded to show his cards, but the bottom card was directly behind the top card and couldn't be seen. He was waiting for our hero to muck, since hero couldn't beat kings. But hero waited him out, asked the dealer to make villain show both, and villain reluctantly showed his other card - a T. Hero finally tabled JJ and won, noting the angle shoot.

Sure you could have tabled your cards, but you'd have missed this great opportunity. Even if you tabled your cards after he said kings instead of before, you'd still not see what he was bluffing with.

No, I don't think Tommy's article in this case addressed the meta game issues very well at all. I'd much prefer to see some interesting techniques for getting more information while at the same time not looking like a slowrolling D-bag.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
There was a 2+2 post not long ago in B&M where villain said "Kings", then proceeded to show his cards, but the bottom card was directly behind the top card and couldn't be seen. He was waiting for our hero to muck, since hero couldn't beat kings. But hero waited him out, asked the dealer to make villain show both, and villain reluctantly showed his other card - a T. Hero finally tabled JJ and won, noting the angle shoot.

Sure you could have tabled your cards, but you'd have missed this great opportunity. Even if you tabled your cards after he said kings instead of before, you'd still not see what he was bluffing with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy fastrolls only when he can beat the hand that the opponent verbally claims. Thus, he would have waited here, and still seen the angle shoot.

It's true that Tommy would have fastrolled aces and missed the angle shoot. To me, this is not a big deal. That's because this sort of angle shoot is rare, and also because it will never cost me the pot (since I never muck without seeing a better hand faceup).

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

I like the way Tommy writes and this article doesn't disappoint in that department. I must say however, that I disagree with most of the content of the article.

Taking a track like Tommy advocates will reward type-A asses. Granted, sometimes the non-shower is a weak/embarassed player; in those instances I employ rules similar to what Tommy advocates.

However, when I'm at a showdown with someone who I don't know to be in the weak/embarassed category I "fastroll" when I am supposed to show (either somebody called my river/all-in bet or I am in first position at showdown). When it is their turn to act first (either I called them or they are first to act at showdown) I never show my hand until I see theirs.

There is a need for good techniques on how to do this and not come across as an ass. When people say "I missed" or "you got me" I've heard that saying "show or fold" works pretty well.

When I hear "I missed" or "you win" or something to that effect I usually just say "cool" (in a lighthearted way) and sit there in the same position with my hands on my cards.

I mean the problem with Tommy's position is that for those who are willing to be asses, they will never have to show their hands unless 1) they have a winner or 2) somebody has the guts/nerve to wait out their little game.

I know a few players I play with freqently who are masters at never showing unless they have a winner. Playing as Tommy suggests would only strengthen their position.

On a side note, I really must disagree with the argument that since a player is weak he should be treated differently based on some equity/justice argument. It's ok to treat weak players differently on a donkey argument (we want them as comfy as possible so they don't leave). But as far as equity/justice is concerned why (in a closed environment with well defined rules--such as in a game) should somebody's skill level give them a special status?(handicapping situations being exempted of course).

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

I never ever and I mean never fastroll, ever. Never.

It's not The One True Way.

But I'm also nuts. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

pretty solid article imo

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

This article is wrong.

Fastrolling in the situation described encourages the verbal announcing which leads to angle-shooting.

I always wait my turn against a verbal announcer, and I tell them to stop slowing the game down when they don't want to turn their cards over, however strong my hand is.

The only time I fast roll is when its obvious what my opponents hand is and I have sucked out or something, or when it such a small pot we should just get onto the next hand.

When I am first to show my hand is always tabled instantly.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

I'd like to present an argument for fastrolling. It comes up most in Omaha, but sometimes holdem. If you show your hand your opponent might not realize he has it beat. Maybe he backdoored a flush that he forgot he had. just show that nut straight and let him see it. He might just fold 2 pair or a busted low, not realizing he backed into the flush.

In holdem, the counterfeited kicker hand is probably the most common example. Flop comes AK373. Just flip over AQ, and say "Ace Queen". Don't
say Aces up or anything that is an overt lie. Just draw attention to your queen. Sometimes people forget about the way the K saved their sorry ass A5off suit. After all, they are stupid enough to play that hand, so clearly they could be stupid enough to miread the board at the end. If you don't fastroll, he flips A5 FACE UP and the dealer will (probably) save him from himself.

Is this angle shooting? Maybe, but I'm comfortable with it from an ethics point of view.

Jim Morgan

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
Taking a track like Tommy advocates will reward type-A asses. Granted, sometimes the non-shower is a weak/embarassed player; in those instances I employ rules similar to what Tommy advocates.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a really good point. And, frankly, one that should have been addressed in the article.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to present an argument for fastrolling. It comes up most in Omaha, but sometimes holdem. If you show your hand your opponent might not realize he has it beat. Maybe he backdoored a flush that he forgot he had. just show that nut straight and let him see it. He might just fold 2 pair or a busted low, not realizing he backed into the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another good point, and another one that should have been addressed in the article. The 2+2 B&M forum has many examples of asses insisting on seeing opponent's hands ("for information"), only to find out their opponent was trying to fold the winner, and losing the pot.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

Reading this article made me not want to read the book.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

I liked the writing style of this article, but it seemed like a very strange choice for an excerpt given the audience of the magazine. Would 2+2 not permit the author to post an actual strategy excerpt or something?

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]

I liked the writing style of this article, but it seemed like a very strange choice for an excerpt given the audience of the magazine. Would 2+2 not permit the author to post an actual strategy excerpt or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy chose the excerpt himself. I'm sure I would have accepted any excerpt he provided.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I liked the writing style of this article, but it seemed like a very strange choice for an excerpt given the audience of the magazine. Would 2+2 not permit the author to post an actual strategy excerpt or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy chose the excerpt himself. I'm sure I would have accepted any excerpt he provided.

[/ QUOTE ]



i've read the manuscript. this element would've been like 77th on my list for excerpts. but it's an interesting choice Tommy made. he values poker etiquette and has strong feelings, as i do, about how good people should act at the table. if you don't care about such things, then he likely would not want to coach you or care about what you think about the book. so i think the choice serves a useful purpose, just not the assumed purpose of trying to sell books to the average 2+2er.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to present an argument for fastrolling. It comes up most in Omaha, but sometimes holdem. If you show your hand your opponent might not realize he has it beat. Maybe he backdoored a flush that he forgot he had. just show that nut straight and let him see it. He might just fold 2 pair or a busted low, not realizing he backed into the flush.

In holdem, the counterfeited kicker hand is probably the most common example. Flop comes AK373. Just flip over AQ, and say "Ace Queen". Don't
say Aces up or anything that is an overt lie. Just draw attention to your queen. Sometimes people forget about the way the K saved their sorry ass A5off suit. After all, they are stupid enough to play that hand, so clearly they could be stupid enough to miread the board at the end. If you don't fastroll, he flips A5 FACE UP and the dealer will (probably) save him from himself.

Is this angle shooting? Maybe, but I'm comfortable with it from an ethics point of view.

Jim Morgan

[/ QUOTE ]

i always "fastroll"...always. i try to direct the strength of my hands (as noted above) and get players w/ winning or tying hands to fold every now and then. i also play so few hands that its a good chance to bring attention to a holding which is a misrepresentation of my game. i also like to keep the game moving and i am a donks best friend.

from reading this exerpt i get the feeling that im gonna like tommys book, much like i like barry's and doyles portion of the original SS. i cant read poker books that actually discuss the playing of hands too much. i dont know if this bodes well for sales though.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

Being taught how to be 'ethical' is not what I or probably most readers of 2+2 magazine read it for, whether they agree or disagree with sentiment of the author. As for the content, why not just make a rule that says both players must show cards immediately at the end of the hand - or that verbal announcements are not allowed and whoever is supposed to show must do so or their hand will be declared dead. This would cut out all the 'ethical' [censored] (read angle-shooting, slowing the game down, mind-games, people being unsure what to do for lack of a rule)

As the rules (or lack of them) stand now, this poster seems correct -

[ QUOTE ]
I always wait my turn against a verbal announcer, and I tell them to stop slowing the game down when they don't want to turn their cards over, however strong my hand is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

He didn't address the most important situation of all: when they announce a good hand you can't beat - i.e the angle-shooting situation. Dunno why.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

Don't get me wrong - I think the idea behind the article was a good one. I like the idea of addressing some of the metagame issues, and I think I'm not alone in wanting to be a gentleman at the table while still getting all the information and nuances from the game that I can. I just thought that if this topic was going to be discussed, it could have gotten a little deeper/better. I do appreciate him addressing it at all though, it's rare that authors/coaches do.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

This really is an excellent point in favor of fastrolling:

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to present an argument for fastrolling. It comes up most in Omaha, but sometimes holdem. If you show your hand your opponent might not realize he has it beat. Maybe he backdoored a flush that he forgot he had. just show that nut straight and let him see it. He might just fold 2 pair or a busted low, not realizing he backed into the flush.

In holdem, the counterfeited kicker hand is probably the most common example. Flop comes AK373. Just flip over AQ, and say "Ace Queen". Don't
say Aces up or anything that is an overt lie. Just draw attention to your queen. Sometimes people forget about the way the K saved their sorry ass A5off suit. After all, they are stupid enough to play that hand, so clearly they could be stupid enough to miread the board at the end. If you don't fastroll, he flips A5 FACE UP and the dealer will (probably) save him from himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

2+2'ers love to pile on. It seems to be their nature.

I noticed as one, then another, then another commented on how Tommy's article was weak. It seems that when someone first comments on an article, others have a tendency to follow suit, I suspect because they are afraid of "not belonging" or something. It is yet another case on 2+2 of The Emperor's New Clothes.

Tommy, ignore the idiots on here. Your article nailed it. Your writing style is a pleasure to read, and the content is obviously from someone who has played a lot of cards -- and gets it. Nice job, can't wait to get your book. I hope the entire manuscript is a lot like this excerpt you provided.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't address the most important situation of all: when they announce a good hand you can't beat - i.e the angle-shooting situation. Dunno why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually he does. In this case he would wait to see the hand. Fastrolling as described in the article refers to when he turns over his, not when he mucks.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He didn't address the most important situation of all: when they announce a good hand you can't beat - i.e the angle-shooting situation. Dunno why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually he does. In this case he would wait to see the hand. Fastrolling as described in the article refers to when he turns over his, not when he mucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where exactly, Pov?

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

this is standard for good players who aren't [censored].

Also I am looking forward to Tommy's book more than I have ever looked forward to a poker book, but not really for articles like this.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
I noticed as one, then another, then another commented on how Tommy's article was weak. It seems that when someone first comments on an article, others have a tendency to follow suit, I suspect because they are afraid of "not belonging" or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

And then, of course, there are those who just want to look cool by being "different" :-)

Several things seem perfectly clear to me:
1) the article topic was good
2) the article missed an opportunity to explain a number of things that it should have explained
3) everyone here is looking forward to the book regardless of the content of this article
4) some people really enjoy the opportunity to call people idiots when they disagree with them

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

Reading this article made me want to read the book.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

I fastroll until someone starts abusing it.

There is one player in my home game who does his best never to show his cards, trying to gain an advantage. I often make him show his cards or muck them.

For other players I will save them the embarrassment of showing everyone that I just owned them by quickly rolling over the nuts.

Like the rest of poker, this is a situational thing. I agree with Tommy that fastrolling should be the default. I stop agreeing when a decent player is trying to slow roll for an edge.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He didn't address the most important situation of all: when they announce a good hand you can't beat - i.e the angle-shooting situation. Dunno why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually he does. In this case he would wait to see the hand. Fastrolling as described in the article refers to when he turns over his, not when he mucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where exactly, Pov?

[/ QUOTE ]

He outlines the situations where fastrolling is appropriate and villain announcing a better hand than hero's is not one of them. Since it does not meet the criteria, this would not be a fastrolling situation.

I suppose you could argue that technically he does not claim the article contains a comprehensive list of situations where fastrolling is appropriate, but I believe the angle-shot the poster I replied to was referring to would be related to mucking rather than rolling, which is offtopic for the article.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
He outlines the situations where fastrolling is appropriate and villain announcing a better hand than hero's is not one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and this is my criticism of the article.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

In that case he doesn't show his hand, and waits for villain to table his, then mucks. Like everyone else. What's so hard to grasp about this?

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
In that case he doesn't show his hand, and waits for villain to table his, then mucks. Like everyone else. What's so hard to grasp about this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, the fact that he never mentions exactly what you just said?

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

well he didn't mention what to do with KQs in the cutoff facing a raise either, so I guess you'll have to wait for the book.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

I have one response to people who won't show when I call
"show or muck"
poker is an information war. I want all the information, and I want to give out none.
If a player is a real big fish and I want to keep them happy, or if they're on my left, and I think being friends with them will get them to softplay me, then I make exceptions.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
well he didn't mention what to do with KQs in the cutoff facing a raise either, so I guess you'll have to wait for the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lame.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't address the most important situation of all: when they announce a good hand you can't beat - i.e the angle-shooting situation. Dunno why.

[/ QUOTE ]

All1N,

There are parts of my book (one of them is called “fastfolding”) that have some text about mucking. The excerpt published in the 2+2 magazine called “Fastrolling” is on the topic of showing. That’s why I didn’t put anything in there about mucking.

Just in case you’re interested, here’s what I do in the situation you asked about.

At the showdown, I don’t muck my hand until I know I am beat. If someone declares a hand that beats mine, and there remains a greater than zero chance that my hand could be better than his, then I don’t muck. The only exception is if I am playing at Artichoke Joe’s. The rule there is that if a player declares a hand, say, “I have a pair of kings,” and I muck my hand before he exposes any cards, and he cannot produce a hand that is a pair of kings or better, then I win the pot. At that casino, I will fastfold anytime I hear someone declare a hand that beats mine. Anywhere else, I do what I suspect you do too, and hold on to my cards until I know I am beat.

Tommy

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

I like the style it was written and I like most everything else of Tommy's that I have read.

This was a bizarre choice! I think it will hurt sales.

Having said that, I agree with the spirit of most everything that was written.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the style it was written and I like most everything else of Tommy's that I have read.

This was a bizarre choice! I think it will hurt sales.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to buy the book anyway, but interestingly this article made me more interested in buying the book because it's an interesting topic that you don't find in other poker books. I think Angelo writes about interesting things from an interesting perspective, and I also have reason to believe the other topics in the book will be covered better than this topic, based on other things of his I've read. I think it will be kind of book where every player will pick up some really good ideas, even if the quality of each section is not the nuts.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

I'll join the camp of the underwhelmed.

Granted that there are many well respected posters here who hold Tommy in very high regard but I'm unsure for whom this sort of advice is directed or particularly useful. Are there cardroom regulars who're seeking counsel on the best ways to showdown their hands?

Though the spirit of the article is very well intentioned, in my experience my own tendency to fast roll (and play fast) is something which angle shooting types constantly try to exploit. As such, I tend to be increasingly willing to sacrifice the good intent thematic of Tommy's advice to make sure that I'm not at a deficit in the swap of information.

Can we call this a mulligan and get a second, strategy oriented post in the books/pub forum?

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

I'm buying the damn book.
Even before I posted once on her I'd been reading/enjoying Tommy's posts.
I love the thought process he goes through and once he got his website up and rolling I found myself checking it often for more articles.

Nice work---I've enjoyed all of it.
M.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm buying the damn book.
Even before I posted once on her I'd been reading/enjoying Tommy's posts.
I love the thought process he goes through and once he got his website up and rolling I found myself checking it often for more articles.

Nice work---I've enjoyed all of it.
M.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft.

Re: Angelo: Fastrolling
 

Tommy's writing is mostly smoke. It's not a good enough read to be entertainment (ala Biggest Game in Town or Positively Fifth Street), yet doesn't have enough strategy to help most people win more. Never have understood his appeal, but lots of folks seem to like his stuff.

In the same vein, Ray Zee is both more amusing and also often gets some real poker wisdom into his stuff.