Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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I grew up in Arkansas so it's hard for me to know how long this stuff has been going on in the rest of the country. We had snake handlers and tongue talkers around all the time.

When I went to the University of Arkansas in the early 80's, we used to get baked and go party at Sister Cindy's rallies on campus.

Has anyone else here ever seen this woman and/or her now-husband Svengali Brother Jed on their campus? I think they stick to mainly the Midwest and South. Funny stuff. I have fond memories of the good times we had hooting it up with Cindy ranting about 'whores' and 'whoremongers'.

This clip gives a bit of a taste, but you'd have to see Cindy live w/o hubby in tow to really appreciate what a hilarious whack job she is.

I don't suppose this furthers the discussion of the thread any but I had a good time reminiscing about the old days being told I was going to Hell for smoking dope and fornicating.

"Hey Cindy, can you point me to some of these whores? I haven't fornicated nearly as much as I'd like the past couple months."

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In the late 80s/early 90s we have brother Jed every spring at Ohio University. It has to be the same guy. It was pretty awesome (entertainment wise). He would stand on the street corner and preach and yell at women passing by about how they were dressed.

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He's everywhere. He made many, many appearances in Hawaii too, venomously calling any random passing female student a whore and raving in general. I remain amazed he hasn't eaten more fists, because he goes way beyond a little too far.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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great post wookie. i didn't mean to suggest that fundamentalist christians operated in the spirit of christianity. i just think that if they were to draw the line in the sand, many christians who view themselves as socially moderate/liberal would fall in line-- referendums regarding gay marriage come to mind.

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I agree with you tarheel. People who do not classify themselves as fundamentalist at all but who call themselves Christian will very often get in line behind a cause. I think religious people in general fall in line, often without giving it much thought.

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And without wanting to admit it. Yay free ride and not having to live up to your own professed beliefs or take a stand on anything! A lot of religious beliefs are at best "morality lite."

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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I have a sister who is an atheist and she thinks it's terrible for my other sister to raise her children to study the bible. She thinks it's a horrible thing to do. Now I doubt she would ever say such a thing to a devout Jew or Muslim or Buddhist but when it comes to Christianity she thinks it's indoctrination.

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I find it hard to believe your sister would not object to submerging kids in the old testament but would do so for the new.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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This strikes me as truly awful and artful reasoning devoid of human empathy. It must be nice not to be the outcast or care about those who might be shunned, even if children. I could never get my conscience in that place, and if there were a God, I would pray with all my might that I never would.

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So you can't refute my logic so you resort to the tried and true dabte tactic of attacking your opponent's character. Since I am apparently devoid of human emphany and lack your moral compass my statement has to horribly wrong? Sorry that my opinion doesn't count since it is at odds with yours. Wookie's religious views would tell him to turn the other cheek. My views tell me just to say good day sir.

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Do better next time.

And empathy does matter, a lot. If anyone deserves it, at least kids do. Surely you can spare at least that much. But if you can let yourself indignantly off the hook about even that, bravo I guess.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

JAK,

I think we're probably on the same page here, but I feel like discussing this further. I don't actually have a problem with Christians setting certain standards of modesty of dress or other codes of decency for themselves. There is some Biblical basis for modest dress, and every reasonable Christian will tell you that we should strive to be pure and holy in the eyes of the Lord. It is perfectly reasonable to try and live a God-pleasing life, in attire and in action. Where I take issue is in the following:

1. When Christians try to force these same codes on others. You could argue that parents are forcing these standards on their children, but the relationship (as it pertains to instilling moral codes) between a parent and his or her child is clearly different than that between two adult peers.
2. When Christians exclude or exclude themselves from people who don't follow those same codes.
3. When the focus of following those codes ceases to be looking pure and holy in the eyes of the Lord, and instead becomes looking pure and holy in the eyes of the world. This is a fine and yet tremendous distinction, but this small change in attitude about why you're doing what you're doing can make a huge difference in how you live your life. Jesus himself addressed this very issue, instructing us to pray in the privacy of our rooms, not making a scene on a street corner, to tithe anonymously rather than with fanfare, and when you're fasting, dress well and look good rather than putting on a show of looking wretched and feeble from your lack of food. Christians are instructed that piety is an issue between oneself and God, not between oneself and the world.

I disagree that moral relativism, nihilism, and iconoclasm pose the greatest threat to Christianity. I think Christians are naturally resilient to this kind of assault on their beliefs -- they are often discussed in the Bible. Even the fundies manage to get that part right. I think the greater threat is tearing the church apart from the inside out. The abuse of Christian teachings is much, much more likely to grip those Christians who would otherwise be well-meaning, and it can irreparably damage the image of all Christians in the eyes of many who might hear the calling. This is really why I get so riled up whenever talk of the fundamentalists comes up.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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JAK,

I think we're probably on the same page here, but I feel like discussing this further. I don't actually have a problem with Christians setting certain standards of modesty of dress or other codes of decency for themselves. There is some Biblical basis for modest dress, and every reasonable Christian will tell you that we should strive to be pure and holy in the eyes of the Lord. It is perfectly reasonable to try and live a God-pleasing life, in attire and in action. Where I take issue is in the following:

1. When Christians try to force these same codes on others. You could argue that parents are forcing these standards on their children, but the relationship (as it pertains to instilling moral codes) between a parent and his or her child is clearly different than that between two adult peers.
2. When Christians exclude or exclude themselves from people who don't follow those same codes.
3. When the focus of following those codes ceases to be looking pure and holy in the eyes of the Lord, and instead becomes looking pure and holy in the eyes of the world. This is a fine and yet tremendous distinction, but this small change in attitude about why you're doing what you're doing can make a huge difference in how you live your life. Jesus himself addressed this very issue, instructing us to pray in the privacy of our rooms, not making a scene on a street corner, to tithe anonymously rather than with fanfare, and when you're fasting, dress well and look good rather than putting on a show of looking wretched and feeble from your lack of food. Christians are instructed that piety is an issue between oneself and God, not between oneself and the world.

I disagree that moral relativism, nihilism, and iconoclasm pose the greatest threat to Christianity. I think Christians are naturally resilient to this kind of assault on their beliefs -- they are often discussed in the Bible. Even the fundies manage to get that part right. I think the greater threat is tearing the church apart from the inside out. The abuse of Christian teachings is much, much more likely to grip those Christians who would otherwise be well-meaning, and it can irreparably damage the image of all Christians in the eyes of many who might hear the calling. This is really why I get so riled up whenever talk of the fundamentalists comes up.

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Many fundamentalists would argue that alot of messages coming from the pulpit nowadays are too soft peddled because we're afraid to offend anybody...that the Gospel isn't preached the way it was intended. Look at the state of the world nowadays. I can't say that I totally disagree.

But, by the same token, I don't believe that the over-the-top, forcing of your worship practices, dress, etc on others is the answer. There needs to be something in the middle.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Wookie,
Thanks for responding. Yeah, reading back over my post those examples did not convey what I meant. In the minds of that church, the dress code was what God intended for all believers. I was trying to convey that they thought this attire served as one's testimony. I remember my coach saying he doesn't wear shorts in public because God intended that only his wife see certain parts of his body. Perfectly fine for him, given the context, but obviously not an "absolute" blueprint for all Christians.

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I disagree that moral relativism, nihilism, and iconoclasm pose the greatest threat to Christianity. I think Christians are naturally resilient to this kind of assault on their beliefs

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But there is a generation of people whose only view of Christianity is fundies garnering media attention, and Hollywood portrayals. People like Bill Maher can say a few soundbites stereotyping all Christians while garnering applause that give his sentiments false impetus. In order to increase or maintain membership and relevancy, I think the Church has shifted either as an overreaction in distancing itself from the kookies or in becoming more socially acceptable within their respective communities by placating p-correctness and adopting a laissez faire approach towards the moral teachings of scripture. It seems ministers are apologetic regarding some of scriptures that hit us where we live or simply avoid them altogether so as not to offend. A subtle creeping of moral relativism IMO. Would love to hear your thoughts!

Edit: The Celestial Railroad a short story and easy read by Hawthorne addresses this issue beautifully! (A little OT for the thread but relevant to this post)

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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I grew up in Arkansas so it's hard for me to know how long this stuff has been going on in the rest of the country. We had snake handlers and tongue talkers around all the time.

When I went to the University of Arkansas in the early 80's, we used to get baked and go party at Sister Cindy's rallies on campus.

Has anyone else here ever seen this woman and/or her now-husband Svengali Brother Jed on their campus? I think they stick to mainly the Midwest and South. Funny stuff. I have fond memories of the good times we had hooting it up with Cindy ranting about 'whores' and 'whoremongers'.

This clip gives a bit of a taste, but you'd have to see Cindy live w/o hubby in tow to really appreciate what a hilarious whack job she is.

I don't suppose this furthers the discussion of the thread any but I had a good time reminiscing about the old days being told I was going to Hell for smoking dope and fornicating.

"Hey Cindy, can you point me to some of these whores? I haven't fornicated nearly as much as I'd like the past couple months."

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In the late 80s/early 90s we have brother Jed every spring at Ohio University. It has to be the same guy. It was pretty awesome (entertainment wise). He would stand on the street corner and preach and yell at women passing by about how they were dressed.

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He's everywhere. He made many, many appearances in Hawaii too, venomously calling any random passing female student a whore and raving in general. I remain amazed he hasn't eaten more fists, because he goes way beyond a little too far.

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Judging from some other clips I've seen now from campuses, the party atmosphere continues. Looks like it's just Jed these days, I guess Cindy is barefoot in the kitchen like a good fundie woman now.

"The piiiiiiig is a per-fect symmmmmmmmbol for the University of ARK-in-saaaawwww....."
*cheers*
"Long ago Gawd declared the piiiiiiiig an unclean animal..."
*cheers*
[rant continues]

25 years later ole Jed still carries on. Bless his loony soul.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Brad, JAK,

I'll give you a more thorough answer later, but I do need to get back to work. The short answer is, what are the two greatest commandments? First is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength," and the second is, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Those are spelled out in no uncertain terms, and to them, all else is peripheral. The other thing I bear in mind is that, at least to me, the words of St. Paul are secondary to the words of Jesus. St. Paul was a good man, but a man just the same, and he was generally tougher on the drunkards and the fornicators et al. than Jesus was. With that all in mind, if the church is to be spreading a message that misses Christ's mark, I'd prefer they spread one that is overly permissive, accepting and loving than a message that is overwrought with hate, division, and exclusion.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Wow, long thread, and read everything. I cannot say that any of it choked me up. I think that I share the same page as diebitter. We are both agnostic and believe that our brains can be used for more profitable purposes than worrying and arguing about religion. I am glad that this did not turn to a flame war.

I am not going to quote, or say I remember who is who, I am only going to do a blanket post, and hope I remember everything.

On history:

Anyone who has studied history knows that Christianity was popularized on hippocracy, extremism, and greed. In many ways, that is still the case, and that since this religion has that scar, it will always have that scar. As long as people feel self-righteous, there will always be a loud, violent, extreme thought process about issues.

The reason somethings are considered "issues" is because there are two extreme groups who loudly protest each other. WW2 was not an "issue" in America because every one believed in it's cause and we were more than eager to join the war. There was no debate, the vote to go to war was unanymous - 1.

If you ask the average person what they think about abortion, the answer will be "I don't know." Roe vs Wade will never be over turned, not because it is a moral issue, but it is an issue of privacy and infringement. Most issues are like like this. Most American's consider themselves Christians, but do not really know the answers, don't care enough to go to church, etc. They try to be kind, and hope that Jesus will forgive them of their sins. That is something that I cannot judge either way.

Most Christians in America probably don't care about the meanings of holidays. The new movement by the Christian base is to stop saying "non-offensive" phrases such as "Seasons Greetings" or "Happy Holidays." No, they tell you to say Merry CHRISTmas." Is this a real "issue?" I don't think so, but a few loudmouths have to make an "issue" out of it.

To beat a Fundy, you simply talk to them about reality, and even easier, recite the very thing they throw in your face: The Bible.

All of our holidays were taken over by the Christians from the Pagans. My grandmother told me how at the beginning of the century, Christmas did not exist. It was called Solstice. Solstice involved the use of a Tree, lit with candles, and presents. Same holiday, different name. Solstice was also a day of reflection on the past year, with a one day fast, and thoughts on the year to come.

Halloween was once named Samhain. It was NOT a religious holiday so much as a celebration of of the Harvest. The Christians got the word "spirit" confused with "ghost." Samhain was also used as a time for an appreciation of those who passed.

Beltain was converted to Easter. Beltain was a celebration of the "new year" and a celebration of the planting. It was a celebration of life, a time of marriage. It is ironic that most marriages are still performed at this time of year.

The Founding Fathers were all Christians. Many of them were able to recite passages from the Bible, and there were many who were able to recall the entire thing. Our Constitution is based, in many ways, on the Bible, and all Fundamentalists will tell you that. However, the Constitution guaranteed the one thing that Jesus taught the most ardently: toleration.

I tell anyone who jumps in my face that they should read "Acts," the book that deals with how the Apostles spread their beliefs. It does not involve standing on a street corner screaming beliefs.

I have been all over the country, and I have seen some disturbing problems dealing with religions of all types. If you ever go to New Orleans and see the Tarot readers on Jackson Square, the readers on the southern side are considered "good" (so-called white magic users) and the readers on the north are considered "evil" (so-called black magic users). I have seen large fights in between these sides, and it is scary to think the extremes of their thinking. The Christians picketed the north side of the Square constantly.

America is a country of extreme thought processes. Think of how the Abortion/ pregnancy thing turned out in California. Here, it is considered wrong to let a child be born with no prenatal care. Any mother of low income has free mandated prenatal care. One one extreme, you have people who say that these mothers should not have the option to abort, and the others say they should be able to abort. Somewhere in the center, it was agreed that the parents should have the choice to have a child, and the child should not suffer.

On one extreme you have pure capitalism (republican party) and the other on socialism (democratic party). There are victories on both sides. While a child can have a free pass to being born and food in his belly while he is helpless, a free basic education, he is on his own when he has to pay for his own health care, education, and income bracket. People slip through the cracks in this system. There are essentially two classes of people in this country.

Most people in America are not religious nuts, and make the choice to ignore Religion. I live within walking distance of at least six churches, along with tens of thousands of others. Most people will agree that one of the scariest people are the people who will walk up to you and say "Let's talk about Jesus."

As for England. Isn't there some American expatriate dude who writes for the Guardian who write a pile of venom every week about how America is falling apart? When is the last time he set foot on this soil? What does he really know? Does one of the world's most respected papers ever ask themselves this? How could we expect common folk to question him if they are told by a media leader that this is all true? I could make up tons of things about the world, and we see this happen all the time, even here. That is the nature of propaganda.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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Brad, JAK,

I'll give you a more thorough answer later, but I do need to get back to work. The short answer is, what are the two greatest commandments? First is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength," and the second is, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Those are spelled out in no uncertain terms, and to them, all else is peripheral. The other thing I bear in mind is that, at least to me, the words of St. Paul are secondary to the words of Jesus. St. Paul was a good man, but a man just the same, and he was generally tougher on the drunkards and the fornicators et al. than Jesus was. With that all in mind, if the church is to be spreading a message that misses Christ's mark, I'd prefer they spread one that is overly permissive, accepting and loving than a message that is overwrought with hate, division, and exclusion.

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I look forward to it. Good discussion.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Speaking of the Ten Commandments. One was ended in the New Testament. Do you know which one, and do you know why? I admit that "do you know why" is a loaded question.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Forgive me for not having the time to read this entire thread and respond in kind (I have 1100 questions on pediatric dentistry and 400 note cards on oral pathology to study for tomorrow's finals) but I wanted to add my thoughts.

The fundamentalists power may or may not be waning but it is certainly still scarily strong. If you watched the youtube republican debate last night you could see how hard each candidate was working to cater to a christian nation. How Romney ate his abortion words from however long ago, how Guiliani is being openly criticized for his interpretation of the bible. This scares me for a reason that has already been outlined above, that the fundamentalists views on issues occasionally differ in many ways from the supposedly kind hearted/tolerant/generous bible *another issue entirely. Also it bothers me on another level because I personally believe it ridiculous that Bush claims to talk to god or our Georgia governor spends his time outside praying for rain during this drought.

My issue with fundamentalists and many Christians in general has to do with this so called core issue of tolerance. This is far and away the last thing I see being practiced by christians (I will admit I live in Augusta Georgia, I will also admit that I sometimes do not have tolerance for them and this slants my viewpoint).

How does the view that anyone without your specific religion will burn in hell for all eternity exhibit tolerance?

On a personal experience level, I bow my head in silence when there are prayers at school related functions. I walk by the giant christmas tree purchased with school funds every day and smile at its cheer. I do not push my own lack of faith on people at every opportunity the same way our waiting rooms at school are filled with christian publications and pamphlets are found in the bathrooms and operatories. Those are acts of tolerance.

There is no tolerance involved in the situation I am finding myself in now at school. The small, highly competitive residency I was recently fortunate enough and busted my ass for four years enough to be accepted to now supposedly is up in arms about my facebook profile religious preference-Athiest. How they accessed this? Why they care? To be honest I had forgotten it was up there. I am suddenly quote "an embarrassment" and "a regret" to people who I have known well for years. I was ignored today by the department head who was at my bar mitzvah when I was 13. Alas, this is not just christians, one of the few residencts who is jewish said I was a disgrace to my people and it pissed him the hell off and then he brought up his assumption that I had no regard for the holocaust.

OK i guess you get the point...sorry I got somewhat personal.

-JP

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Unfortunately, it's still okay to hate and ostracize atheists, and nobody is as secure in their hatred as someone who thinks he has god on his side.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

I am shocked at the response you got for putting "Atheist" on facebook. A friend of mine, put it out too, because he got afraid (in certain nations, like Iran, being atheist is worse than not being the religion of the majority).

It is sad that there's so much intolerance, it should also be unChristian, given that Christ was a very tolerant man.

The main problem with fundamentalists is the lack of tolerance for other ways of life. I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they want to believe as long as they don't judge others for not believing the same.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

The tolerance issue is somewhat disingenuous, in that the expectation is ALWAYS that the church is the one to yield, reinterpret, or annul it's position on scripture rather than the individual yield to the principle. I suspect it's because the principle is often suggested by a hypocrite through invective. However, this is a non-issue for non-believers because you are not bound by the Christian faith.

My hipocrisy lies in the fact that I know certain acts to be wrong according to my faith (i.e. lying, getting drunk) but I do them at times anyway. But I do not desire the scripture to be less condemning or more "tolerant" of such things. It is my duty to overcome these, so "hate the sin and love the sinner" is not a license for perpetuity. "He that is without sin cast the first stone" was followed by "go and sin no more". But I note that Christ was alone with her when he said the last part which I think is significant because the things that matter are always between the individual and God.

I feel in interpreting much of the scripture the fundy will see what he wants as will the agnostic, atheist, and even myself. It is a struggle to truly read with an open heart and open mind when we are taught that "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) and "Behold, this only have I found: that God made man upright; but they search for many schemes." (Ecc 7:29)
The kookie fringe is not hard to spot and avoid, but getting out of my own way is another matter.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

JAK,

I don't think doing things you know to be wrong is necessarily hypocrisy. Humans are weak, and we can't always be perfect, even if we know what to do. The hypocrisy is when we judge and condemn others for their shortcomings while trying to establish our own righteousness. A smoker admonishing people not to start smoking is not necessarily a hypocrite. He may just be a guy who screwed up and is now an addict, no matter how much he'd like to shake his addiction. A DEA agent who smokes reefer on the side is a hypocrite, though.

There's a difference between teaching the scripture and enforcing the scripture, and you can definitely do one without the other.

There's a whole lot to read in the casting stones story. I've always read the concluding "go, and sin no more," not as a command meant to strike fear into the heart of the adulteress, but as a proclamation of her freedom. She is no longer a slave to her sin and its consequences, but she is free to breathe in the fresh air of a better life. She'll probably slip up again, but she'll still know to whom to turn to shed the chains for her once again.

Great passages at the end there, and very true.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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Brad, JAK,

I'll give you a more thorough answer later, but I do need to get back to work. The short answer is, what are the two greatest commandments? First is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength," and the second is, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Those are spelled out in no uncertain terms, and to them, all else is peripheral. The other thing I bear in mind is that, at least to me, the words of St. Paul are secondary to the words of Jesus. St. Paul was a good man, but a man just the same, and he was generally tougher on the drunkards and the fornicators et al. than Jesus was. With that all in mind, if the church is to be spreading a message that misses Christ's mark, I'd prefer they spread one that is overly permissive, accepting and loving than a message that is overwrought with hate, division, and exclusion.

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Wookie,

After sleeping on this thread overnight, there is a rebuttal to your thoughts that came to mind. While I don't totally disagree with what you are saying, I believe that the 'ugly' facts of the Bible, if you will, such as the wages of sin is death and that Hell is a real place must be studied, taught, & preached in our churches. Sadly, at times, it is not. That is exactly what Satan wants...makes his job easier. The end result is you wind up with a crop of Christians who believe there is no hell & even if there was, God is a loving God & wouldn't send anyone there. I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail. IMO, that fear factor/hardcore truth needs to be addressed right along with the warm & fuzzy parts that everybody likes to hear. Afterall, it is part of the gospel.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Brad,

First, I agree. However, as I mentioned in my last post in this thread, there's a difference between teaching the scripture and enforcing the scripture, and there's a difference between teaching about Hell and threatening Hell. I don't take issue with the teachers. I take issue with the enforcers and the threateners.

Second, though, I would argue that even if a church misses the mark and doesn't teach the parts of scripture about Hell, if it still gets its members to obey the two most important commandments, little is actually lost. When it comes down to it, Hell is largely irrelevant to someone who obeys the first two commandments. They certainly won't be going there, and even if they followed the two greatest commandments perfectly, they wouldn't be the ones to decide who goes there and who doesn't. Is a Christian education without any knowledge of hell incomplete? Yes, of course. Is the lack of knowledge about hell on its own a significant barrier to a relationship with God in this world or the next? No, not really.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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I take issue with the enforcers and the threateners.

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Mr. Wookie, I appreciate your comments and your considerate beliefs. However, is not the nature of god with respect to hell one of an enforcer and a threatener? I just thought of one response...is this negated by his leaving one simple out through jesus?

-JP

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

God can do all the threatening, enforcing, judging, and punishing He wants to. We, however, are taught to "judge not, lest ye may be judged." God is the true judge, and He is the only true source of both justification and condemnation. People claiming to speak on His behalf about who He justifies and who He condemns are just clanging cymbals, causing a lot of racket, but not really amounting to much.

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I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail.

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I consider myself to be a Christian and I don't believe in Hell. I do not think that Hell needs to be taught in church. I don't think I've ever even heard it brought up at my church to be honest.

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Christianity is a way of life. This involves following the nine commandments. Believing or not believing in Hell has nothing to do with proving it exists. I don't think that following just the first two commandments is a sign of a Christian, just some one who wants to take the sure bet, and not bother with what makes being a Christian a Christian.

Accepting Christianity is accepting it's legacy, it's worth, and it's problems. I am not comfortable with the entire belief system, nor am I comfortable identifying with that group of people. I do not believe that I should follow all of the teachings, although, by default, being what I think is a "good" person is similar to Christian leanings.

I know that sounded horrible.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Dave,

I'm curious as to the answer to your trivia question. Is it the Sabbath? If so, I disagree, and if I'm wrong, fill me in.

More significantly, though, I don't think that focusing on the two greatest commandments necessarily means you're only partially a Christian. From my point of view, it looks like all of the commandments, not just the best-known ten, AND their correct interpretations, follow from these two greatest commandments. To fully live out these two is itself a life commitment, and is itself living according to all the other commandments.

One thing I'll tell you, Dave, is I suspect that many of the Christian beliefs you take issue with may be human dogma, not the actual words of Christ. If you're taking issue with the words of Christ, that's your prerogative, but I'd caution everyone reading this, Christain and non-Christian, to be alert when discussing things about Christianity as to how much is right from scripture and how much is coming from imperfect human interpretations or even complete fabrications. I would argue that someone who accepts the teachings of Christ but rejects the man-made dogma that sometimes gets interwoven with them is every bit the Christian, if not moreso, than someone who accepts both scripture and dogma.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail.

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I consider myself to be a Christian and I don't believe in Hell. I do not think that Hell needs to be taught in church. I don't think I've ever even heard it brought up at my church to be honest.

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Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven. This is a prime example of what I was talking about in my last post. Nobody wants to hear the whole truth, they want to cherry pick only the parts that they like.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

I'm curious as to the answer to your trivia question. Is it the Sabbath? If so, I disagree, and if I'm wrong, fill me in.

More significantly, though, I don't think that focusing on the two greatest commandments necessarily means you're only partially a Christian. From my point of view, it looks like all of the commandments, not just the best-known ten, AND their correct interpretations, follow from these two greatest commandments. To fully live out these two is itself a life commitment, and is itself living according to all the other commandments.

One thing I'll tell you, Dave, is I suspect that many of the Christian beliefs you take issue with may be human dogma, not the actual words of Christ. If you're taking issue with the words of Christ, that's your prerogative, but I'd caution everyone reading this, Christain and non-Christian, to be alert when discussing things about Christianity as to how much is right from scripture and how much is coming from imperfect human interpretations or even complete fabrications. I would argue that someone who accepts the teachings of Christ but rejects the man-made dogma that sometimes gets interwoven with them is every bit the Christian, if not moreso, than someone who accepts both scripture and dogma.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. It's really sad that so many nonbelievers get blinded by this & never give Christianity a chance.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

I'm curious as to the answer to your trivia question. Is it the Sabbath? If so, I disagree, and if I'm wrong, fill me in.

More significantly, though, I don't think that focusing on the two greatest commandments necessarily means you're only partially a Christian. From my point of view, it looks like all of the commandments, not just the best-known ten, AND their correct interpretations, follow from these two greatest commandments. To fully live out these two is itself a life commitment, and is itself living according to all the other commandments.

One thing I'll tell you, Dave, is I suspect that many of the Christian beliefs you take issue with may be human dogma, not the actual words of Christ. If you're taking issue with the words of Christ, that's your prerogative, but I'd caution everyone reading this, Christain and non-Christian, to be alert when discussing things about Christianity as to how much is right from scripture and how much is coming from imperfect human interpretations or even complete fabrications. I would argue that someone who accepts the teachings of Christ but rejects the man-made dogma that sometimes gets interwoven with them is every bit the Christian, if not moreso, than someone who accepts both scripture and dogma.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. It's really sad that so many nonbelievers get blinded by this & never give Christianity a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about Dave, but I can say, that many of the issues (for me) are believing in illogical things. Believing that God exists and that Jesus is God is very arbitrary. Why would it only convince people that live in certain geographical regions? Why does being born in a certain part of the world make you better than other parts of the world? If you are born in Asia or in the Middle East, you are very likely to be Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim, not Christian. It seems illogical (to me) that Christians are right and they are wrong, when both sides seem to give similar reasons on why they believe (I just feel it).

I think the teachings of Christ with respect to being tolerant and loving one another are good things, but I don't think that teaching that the Christian god is the true god is a good thing. I just can't accept the idea that someone goes to Hell because he doesn't believe the same things as me.

Actions are more important than belief in God or not. Being good to my neighbor, being a good son, helping people, being kind are things that are infinity times more important than praying or thinking about supernatural beings.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail.

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I consider myself to be a Christian and I don't believe in Hell. I do not think that Hell needs to be taught in church. I don't think I've ever even heard it brought up at my church to be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven. This is a prime example of what I was talking about in my last post. Nobody wants to hear the whole truth, they want to cherry pick only the parts that they like.

[/ QUOTE ]

he did? most of the scriptures that come to mind involve salvation or his proclamation of being divine

examples please

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

I'm curious as to the answer to your trivia question. Is it the Sabbath? If so, I disagree, and if I'm wrong, fill me in.

More significantly, though, I don't think that focusing on the two greatest commandments necessarily means you're only partially a Christian. From my point of view, it looks like all of the commandments, not just the best-known ten, AND their correct interpretations, follow from these two greatest commandments. To fully live out these two is itself a life commitment, and is itself living according to all the other commandments.

One thing I'll tell you, Dave, is I suspect that many of the Christian beliefs you take issue with may be human dogma, not the actual words of Christ. If you're taking issue with the words of Christ, that's your prerogative, but I'd caution everyone reading this, Christain and non-Christian, to be alert when discussing things about Christianity as to how much is right from scripture and how much is coming from imperfect human interpretations or even complete fabrications. I would argue that someone who accepts the teachings of Christ but rejects the man-made dogma that sometimes gets interwoven with them is every bit the Christian, if not moreso, than someone who accepts both scripture and dogma.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. It's really sad that so many nonbelievers get blinded by this & never give Christianity a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about Dave, but I can say, that many of the issues (for me) are believing in illogical things. Believing that God exists and that Jesus is God is very arbitrary. Why would it only convince people that live in certain geographical regions? Why does being born in a certain part of the world make you better than other parts of the world? If you are born in Asia or in the Middle East, you are very likely to be Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim, not Christian. It seems illogical (to me) that Christians are right and they are wrong, when both sides seem to give similar reasons on why they believe (I just feel it).

I think the teachings of Christ with respect to being tolerant and loving one another are good things, but I don't think that teaching that the Christian god is the true god is a good thing. I just can't accept the idea that someone goes to Hell because he doesn't believe the same things as me.

Actions are more important than belief in God or not. Being good to my neighbor, being a good son, helping people, being kind are things that are infinity times more important than praying or thinking about supernatural beings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very much agree. The choice of one God versus another is generally a matter of geography, not either conscience or even knowledge and understanding. The assertion that it is one's own religion that everyone should naturally accept is chauvinistic, willful, and blinkered. And, as history proves, often if not usually unsuccessful when not imposed by force or decree.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider myself to be a Christian and I don't believe in Hell. I do not think that Hell needs to be taught in church. I don't think I've ever even heard it brought up at my church to be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven. This is a prime example of what I was talking about in my last post. Nobody wants to hear the whole truth, they want to cherry pick only the parts that they like.

[/ QUOTE ]

he did? most of the scriptures that come to mind involve salvation or his proclamation of being divine

examples please

[/ QUOTE ]

There are lots of them in Matthew, Mark, & Luke. Revelation too.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Yes, the missing commandment is the Sabbath. I do not know the exact book, but it is in the new Testament. I think it is in one of the Letters from John.

Enrique touched on a key thought there. I am not able to bring myself to damn someone else to Hell because they do not believe what I believe. I also agree that the average Christian, especially the Born Again, does not walk the way the Bible tells you to walk. Some of the most offensive and rudest people I have ever met are Christian and some of the nicest, down to earth people I have ever met were Satanists. Religion has nothing to do with the spirit of who you are, it is ultimately up to you to make the correct decisions in life.

I do not approve of the way Jesus is advertised. It bothers me that churches will tell poor people to not worry, put your faith in Jesus, and life will be better. Just pray. In the same breath, the minister will tell you that material things are not important, and that money has not value. Ten minutes later, the plate will be passed.

It is hard for me to accept that the Bible was written by some Holy Spirit. The Bible has been rewritten several times in the past centuries. I heard that the King James Bible was rewritten 8 times in the 1900s alone.

The best way to control and manipulate people is through fear and giving false knowledge. We seen this very concept applied to the Iraq War. The fear of going to Hell must be part of the teachings, because that fear allows you to walk a straight line, pay the tithe, etc.

I have a problem with the people who represent themselves as Christians but who obviously are not. The people standing on the street corner, screaming in my ear, breaking the toleration teachings.

I do not want to be part of an organization that hides child molesters, and refuses to punish those people.

The way Christians talk, I can go out, kill your child, repent in prison, and be ensured a spot in Heaven. Now, you have to look deep inside him or herself to find forgiveness for me.

Who is being less Christian here? Would any God, who knows the emotions of humans, really believe that he would be able to keep a tame Heaven with the parents and the murderers in the same place?

I don't buy it that you can go ahead and steal, lie, kill, and be a pure demon, repent, and then call yourself a Christian, guaranteeing yourself a spot in Heaven. Take the non-believer, who has done all he can do to help the world, cared for his children, and never even stole a candy bar while he may have been penniless and starving. Between the Sinner and Non Sinner, who goes to Heaven? The Sinner goes before the Atheist?

You, as a Believer, are going to tell me this is right, or even makes sense?

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Enrique,

Questions of whether to believe in any god at all are not ones I'm going to deal with. It's an issue of faith, and I agree it's not the reasoning part of my brain that's responsible for my faith. It's the illogical portion of me that deals with the basic question of faith, but I don't think that anything illogical is necessarily bad. If you maintain that the only issues in this world are the ones that are either observable or rational, then I don't have a logical argument that can refute this.

On the subject of multiple religions, I have a few more offerings, though. Now, the following is not scripturally based at all, so bear in mind that I'm just a man speculating, but I still think I have something worth considering. One idea I've toyed with is the idea that the same God came to different people of different nations, they each called Him by a different name, and each did their best to transcribe His message. We're all only human, though, so what each got written down differs from nation to nation somewhat, but there is still a great deal of commonality between all of the major religions. After that, though, the demagogues got a hold of the teachings and attacked the other groups as a means to rise to power rather than teaching what was first taught by God. That idea's a little out-there, but it's one answer I can offer for you to think about.

The more important thing I want for people reading here to take to heart is that Christians making a big deal of condemning people of other or no religions to hell are not really doing their jobs as Christians. As I mentioned to Dave, it is not our place to determine who goes where. What I know is that I have found a clear way to a relationship with God, and that's what really matters.

I'm well aware of scripture that is somewhat problematic for my interpretation here, notably John 6:53-54 and John 14:6. The former reads, "Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Many read this quite literally, thinking only those people who take communion can have salvation. They forget, though, that Jesus has not yet done the communion thing yet, so clearly what Jesus means by his body and blood at this point is not yet clear. My personal interpretation is that the references to His body and blood are metaphors for Jesus' teachings and love, respectively, but that's certainly up for debate. If you actually keep reading in John chapter 6, you'll see that these words actually caused many people to stop following Jesus.

And finally, on the subject of doing good versus having a relationship with God being more important, I know I'm not going to convince you, but Christians will (or should) disagree. It is written, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." We can do good sometimes, and it's important, but under our own power, we continually fall short. Thankfully, God fills in the gaps.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Brad, all,

Yes, the Gospels have many images and stories about both Heaven and Hell, although I'm not sure of the tally of stories of each. Revelation, though, was written by a guy named John who almost certainly wasn't the same John who wrote the Gospel. It shouldn't really be counted in Jesus' words about Heaven and Hell.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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Brad, all,

Yes, the Gospels have many images and stories about both Heaven and Hell, although I'm not sure of the tally of stories of each. Revelation, though, was written by a guy named John who almost certainly wasn't the same John who wrote the Gospel. It shouldn't really be counted in Jesus' words about Heaven and Hell.

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Technically maybe not but it has alot about hell in it which reinforces my point. I added it as an afterthought.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Wookie,
Your idea of how different people interpreted the truth in a different way is something I've heard before. I see a glimpse of understanding of other points of view as long as they are theistic. What about Buddhists or atheism? I guess the question means more with respect to Buddhism, I am ignorant on the subject, but Buddhism doesn't sound like a religion with a God. I can see Judaism, Islam and Christianity jumped together as similar and with different interpretations of the truth, but what about the others? Anyway, even if you consider that they are different interpretations of the truth, how is Christianity the "true" interpretation of the Truth? Why can only Western societies see it as the truth (and many of these societies see it as the truth after years of being tortured and killed to believe it).

With respect to doing good versus the relationship with God, you are correct that you are not going to convince me. I find doing good to be much more important than belief in God. I actually don't understand thinking otherwise. I don't like the phrase you quote and it doesn't seem like a good argument. It seems that the phrase tries to convince people to be humble and not boast about their actions, which is a poor reason to stop doing good.

The thing I agree with you, is not judging. I think it is a very important thing to stop conflicts. Not judging others for believing in different things.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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God can do all the threatening, enforcing, judging, and punishing He wants to. We, however, are taught to "judge not, lest ye may be judged." God is the true judge, and He is the only true source of both justification and condemnation. People claiming to speak on His behalf about who He justifies and who He condemns are just clanging cymbals, causing a lot of racket, but not really amounting to much.

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So I should keep my mouth shut and my thoughts closed in thinking the god you describe is a despot who rules by fear and punishment of those who question his excessively harsh punishment (I consider eternal hell pretty excessive compared to most any crime committed in the blink of a lifetime).

-JP

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Just realized how far off topic my posts have helped to derail this thread, sorry op and sorry all talk involving religion seems to be funneled directly into the same discussions.

-JP

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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God can do all the threatening, enforcing, judging, and punishing He wants to.

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Welcome to the Animal Farm.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

You know there is an SMP forum. Some of you would really like the "atheist sandbox" over there.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

All,

It looks like we're starting to get onto some subjects where debate on an internet message board is completely unproductive and too often leads to unpleasant arguments. I've been pleasantly surprised with the tone of this thread so far, but by and large, I don't care to deal with questions of the existence of God. I am respectful and tolerant of atheists, and I didn't come into this thread trying to convert anyone, but I consider asking me questions to try and back me into a logical trap not being particularly respectful or tolerant of my beliefs. I'm not going to deal with those questions, but if you want to continue along those lines, there are probably people in SMP who'd enjoy sparring with you. I'll deal with a few more of these questions later, though.