whats better to call or shove this flop
 

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $84.50
SB: $110.70
Hero (BB): $100
UTG: $88.90
MP: $129.85
CO: $212

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $4</font>, MP calls $4, CO folds, BTN calls $4, SB calls $3.50, Hero calls $3

Flop: ($20) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $11</font>, MP calls $11, BTN calls $11, SB calls $11, HERO? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

GAMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

Dead monies, big draw = shove imo

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

Shove alllllll dayyy

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

is shove really best? i think i want to keep all the smaller draws in.

you could even make an argument for min raising here hoping to get a few dead calls and someone to push all in.

theres 63 dead in the pot. you have 96 behind. you push that makes 162 pot and 96 to call. not even laying someone 2:1, or rather if called by 2pr/set, you need to be good 33% to break even.

i think theres more EV in just calling. Your not going to take this pot down non contested all too often, and when called. If you think someone will call 96 with KQ,JK,TJ,9J then now pushing would have a bit more EV (maybe?)

iam really guessing i haven't done any math.

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

The point is we have a good amount of FE coupled with lots of dead money in the pot and a very strong draw with many outs to the nuts.

We'd love to take down this pot without having to hit our draw, and if we're going to commit our stack to it (which we should), it's best to do it when we have fold equity and an opportunity to see both remaining cards if called.

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

I actually kinda, really like call

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

[ QUOTE ]

you could even make an argument for min raising here hoping to get a few dead calls and someone to push all in.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible advice. Shove this flop all day long and be happy about it.

Imo - Shove&gt;Call&gt;Fold&gt;Min-Raising

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I actually kinda, really like call

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

i think i shove as well with the dead money, we might not get a ton of action if we call and hit anyway

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

i shove here

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think i shove as well with the dead money, we might not get a ton of action if we call and hit anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

we might get more action though, so it works both ways.

FWIW I spoke to sightless on aim before he posted this hand and I said I really liked a call.

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

I have no doubt that shoving is definately +EV, but calling with such a monster might actually be better.

Obviously if you hit a K on the turn you will be free-rolling against maybe 2-3 here, or a flush could come up against a smaller flush. I dunno just babbling, have no idea which is better actually. I would probably shove, just because I know doing so is very profitable...just not sure if it is the most profitable.

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

this seems like a call

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

[ QUOTE ]


Imo - Shove&gt;Call&gt; Fold &gt;Min-Raising

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

I guess I like to gamble for a huge pot in this spot. I think a smallish raise (maybe to 40ish) will look very strong here. A worse draw might shove given how much is now in the pot. I think a shove shuts down the action here, and we are a decent favourite over anything other than flopped straight.

Then again calling and drawing isn't terrible, nor is an all-in. It is possible that a lot of our outs are held by our opponents.

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I actually kinda, really like call

[/ QUOTE ]
If I can try to explain what carrotsnake is thinking, we have 2 very good nut draws. In a pot this multiway, a whole lot of our implied odds come from doodz with non nut draws that will get it in when we hit the turn (lower spades in particular) While shoving is certainly +EV with all the dead money in the pot, you're never getting called by a worse draw and you're often flipping-ish when you get called. Just flatting the flop allows you to realize your implied odds.

Also, if we just call this flop and hit a spade, king or 8 on the turn I think that I like donking more than check/raising. Anyone else?

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

I hear the arguments for a push, but how much fold equity do we really have against all these callers?

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

yeah ur gonna get called here by something that beats u so dont shove

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I actually kinda, really like call

[/ QUOTE ]
If I can try to explain what carrotsnake is thinking, we have 2 very good nut draws. In a pot this multiway, a whole lot of our implied odds come from doodz with non nut draws that will get it in when we hit the turn (lower spades in particular) While shoving is certainly +EV with all the dead money in the pot, you're never getting called by a worse draw and you're often flipping-ish when you get called. Just flatting the flop allows you to realize your implied odds.

Also, if we just call this flop and hit a spade, king or 8 on the turn I think that I like donking more than check/raising. Anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]


If there is another spade draw then that leaves little spade outs. If the turn pairs the board we're pretty much [censored] to continue.

What makes you think another fd is folding if you push anyway?

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

The fact that so many people are interested in this flop reduces the EV of shoving, since many of our outs are likely to be out in the other players' hands.

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

w/ nielso, shove. pick up a load of dead money

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that so many people are interested in this flop reduces the EV of shoving, since many of our outs are likely to be out in the other players' hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

It reduces the ev of calling too...

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

Call spike king shove free roll laugh all the way to the bank

poker's easy

Re: whats better to call or shove this flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that so many people are interested in this flop reduces the EV of shoving, since many of our outs are likely to be out in the other players' hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Our non-outs are also likely to be held in other players' hands as well so this point is moot, unless you're contending that people are more likely to call with draws then with pairs n junk, which is true. Still, I wouldn't take more than one out away from us when doing EV calcs for that observation.