FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

hey,

it seems you perm banned melchiades earlier :

"He admitted he created account welcome2theparty to spam Party r/b by pm because he was warned on this account. This is totally unacceptable on many levels. I have copy of the AIM conversation. Banned. MH/080807."

seems to be some sort of mixup here, i'm not entirely sure what has happened. melch claims :

1) he was spammed by welcome2theparty
2) melch isn't even an affil (he actually pm'ed welcome for details)

he really doesn't seem like the kind of guy to lie.

the ip addresses also dont match. no idea what AIM convo this is. melch's SN is AlltidIVater fwiw.

i unbanned him.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

[ QUOTE ]
i unbanned him.

[/ QUOTE ]

After all the discussions in this forum about this type of action, I have to say I am absolutely amazed to read this, whatever the underlying circumstances. (I have not received a PM from you.)

In fact, I have just given the full reasons for the ban in the other current thread.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

yes, i figured i would take flak for this. i was also 99.9% sure that the ban was a big misunderstanding.

i tried to find your AIM but no one had it. my making this thread was comparable to a PM, no?

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

also one reason i unbanned him was so he could link me to welcome2theparty's profile so i could compare ip addresses. i couldn't find his profile by other means.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

Sometimes, for the sake of order, it is important that a spammer or poster of perversion be banned as quickly as possible. And in these instances the first moderator to witness the horror should extinguish the monstrosity without regard to boundaries.

However, I can think of no situation where it may be an emergency that any poster, no matter how innocent or popular, be unbanned "asap" without consulting the person who struck the blow.

Yeti, I don't doubt your good intentions in this matter, but let's not step on each other's toes in this way. Please. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

Who's right notwithstanding, my biggest problem here is this:

there should be 2 notes here, one from mike haven for the original ban and one from yeti saying that he unbanned him and why. however, there are no notes at all. what gives guys?

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

alright, sorry mat.

durron, i removed the notes. why should notes of an erroneous ban remain in someones profile? it makes no sense.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

JFC.

Not only did you unban another mod's ban, but you also deleted another mod's Notes?

JFC.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

if only someone were capable of giving me a reason why that actually matters!

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

btw your initial ban seems pretty ridiculous. if someone messages me a chat log akin to this :

IDIOT : HAY YOU WANT PARTY RB?
guy : er who is this
IDIOT : DIABLO THIS IS MAH RB ACCOUNT

then i'm not gonna go instantly ban diablo. ok, melch isn't a forum celebrity but you could have at least checked ip addresses (my apologies if, like me, you couldn't find welcome2theparty's account).

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

Whether or not my ban was ridiculous, because Melchiades "doesn't seem like the kind of guy to lie"; claims "he was spammed by welcome2theparty"; and claims he "isn't even an affil", you broke two of the much discussed fundamental rules of being a moderator :-

you unbanned someone without discussing it first with the banning mod or Mat or Ryan;

and you also deleted Notes made by another mod.

You also took action on an account and didn't leave any Notes yourself. (Posts in the mods' forum do not take the place of Notes, because many current mods don't read all the posts here, and most future mods won't read all the existing posts here.)

At this point, I am in no way arguing the merits or otherwise of the ban I made. I may or may not have made a bad decision. It may or may not have been the worst ban decision of all time.

However, your actions leave a great deal to be desired, and your asking what is wrong with effecting the unbanning, for any reason, and your totally indifferent deletion of existing Mod Notes, rather than your adding to them, should be a serious concern to all.

If you had deleted a * "because he didn't seem like a guy who should have one", I can only imagine the irritation caused to the OOT mods.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

i just cannot for the life of me see why there should be two sets of notes to document an incorrect banning and the subsequent reversal of that. it makes no sense whatsoever, and at this point i fail to see how you could disagree.

your argument basically seems to consist of 'it's a rule that you don't do that', but applying the rule in this case seems absurd.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

[ QUOTE ]
if only someone were capable of giving me a reason why that actually matters!

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess from this that your attitude is that it doesn't matter what the consensus of opinion among the mods is on any matter because you're going to go ahead and do your own thing in any case?

There's not really a lot of point in debating policy matters at all, is there?

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

MH,

Two points:

1) I agree with the gist of just about everything you've written and it all makes sense.

2) But when you write things like "a serious concern to all" about something like this, I feel like things are being taken way too seriously. I mean, Yeti made a decision that to him made logical sense (that Melch was likely incorrectly banned) and then took some actions that were probably a little rash and perhaps not too well thought out. At the very least he should have PM'd the banner and left a note about the status. And I agree that there's no emergency need to unban, no big deal if Melch has to wait a few hours. However, as I've said before, I think a lot of people around here get way too worked up about stuff that really isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I think a lot of the stuff that gets posted in some of the forums that few people seem to worry about is a much more "serious concern to all" than any of this sort of crap.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

[ QUOTE ]
i just cannot for the life of me see why there should be two sets of notes to document an incorrect banning and the subsequent reversal of that. it makes no sense whatsoever, and at this point i fail to see how you could disagree.

your argument basically seems to consist of 'it's a rule that you don't do that', but applying the rule in this case seems absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this juncture, I have no idea whether it was an unfair ban or not.

I thought it was a fair ban at the time, so I banned him.

You thought it was unfair, so you unbanned him without discussion.

If you think this is the way to mod, fair enough. We'll all just make our own decisions and the last one counts.

And we won't document our decisions in the Notes, for those who come behind.

In this case, if our Notes were there, and then in two months' time Melchiades is reported as spamming, whatever mod was dealing with the report would have the Notes to refer to.

With your way of no Notes, if the future mod is friends with the guy he can say to himself, "No previous history - he seems like a nice guy", = no action.

You don't see which is the better way for all mods, in general terms?

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

i didn't think the ban was 'unfair'. i was as close to certain as possible that it was DEAD WRONG. there is a huge difference there.

when a long-time strategy poster messages me saying 'dude wtf i have been banned for spamming, i am not even an affiliate, no clue what this is about, some dude pm'ed me party rb spam earlier today and now this happens', you can be pretty sure there has been misunderstanding.

i have no idea why you think i am against protocol in general. i just don't think it applies in this exact circumstance!

here's an example. lets say tonight i get drunk and permban anacardo and place in the notes 'FU ANACARDO YOU POST SUCH LONG RAMBLING EMO NONSENSE FU FU FU I HATE YOU'. you are saying that this should remain in the notes for eternity even after he is quickly unbanned? what sense does that even make? you might as well add into my notes that i won the egg and spoon race back in 91 because it holds about as much relevance.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

agree with diablo that you are taking this way too seriously. if the positions were reversed, i would reply to this thread with

'heh, oops, guess i acted a bit quickly there. sorry, thanks for tidying up after me'

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

[ QUOTE ]
MH,

Two points:

1) I agree with the gist of just about everything you've written and it all makes sense.

2) But when you write things like "a serious concern to all" about something like this, I feel like things are being taken way too seriously. I mean, Yeti made a decision that to him made logical sense (that Melch was likely incorrectly banned) and then took some actions that were probably a little rash and perhaps not too well thought out. At the very least he should have PM'd the banner and left a note about the status. And I agree that there's no emergency need to unban, no big deal if Melch has to wait a few hours. However, as I've said before, I think a lot of people around here get way too worked up about stuff that really isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I think a lot of the stuff that gets posted in some of the forums that few people seem to worry about is a much more "serious concern to all" than any of this sort of crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your general confirmation of agreement.

It should be a serious concern to all that we have a mod who

1. does his own thing, whatever the debated and agreed procedures are

and then

2. asks what the big deal is that he didn't follow the debated and agreed procedures in some trivial case (if the guy isn't a spammer) or other.

As I believe you have said in another thread, (or two), you don't mind following the rules, whether or not you agree with them, as long as they are agreed and followed consistently.

This is why I am so uptight about this trivial case.

I don't know Melchiades from Adam, but I made a decision, good or bad, based on my interpretation of what was in front of me at the time, (and Yeti still doesn't know all of what was in front of me), and Yeti came along and broke all sorts of mod rules, actual or inferred, with complete and utter indifference to the house rules, which exist whether a subject situation is trivial or complex.

It wasn't many weeks ago that some of us (though not me on that occasion) were screaming that there should be new software added to track which mods were deleting Notes, because it was so irritating that some had "disappeared".

Maybe I and a few other mods do take our roles very seriously, perhaps too seriously? I will consider trying to change in this respect and follow Yeti's lead to simply do my own thing and not worry about what other mods have decided as procedures that should be followed, when I think the situation is unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

[ QUOTE ]
here's an example. lets say tonight i get drunk and permban anacardo and place in the notes 'FU ANACARDO YOU POST SUCH LONG RAMBLING EMO NONSENSE FU FU FU I HATE YOU'. you are saying that this should remain in the notes for eternity even after he is quickly unbanned?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats hilarious and gives me an idea. I think I'll go make some notes on some politics posters.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
here's an example. lets say tonight i get drunk and permban anacardo and place in the notes 'FU ANACARDO YOU POST SUCH LONG RAMBLING EMO NONSENSE FU FU FU I HATE YOU'. you are saying that this should remain in the notes for eternity even after he is quickly unbanned?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats hilarious and gives me an idea. I think I'll go make some notes on some politics posters.

[/ QUOTE ]

All,

Link

Regards,
--jman220

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

Please try to understand I couldn't really give a [censored] about this specific case. (For "unfair" in previous posts read "bad", if you wish.)

It is your total indifference to obvious and standard house rules that has got my goat.

Unfortunately, whatever I say won't change that, so I fold.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please try to understand I couldn't really give a [censored] about this specific case. (For "unfair" in previous posts read "bad", if you wish.)

It is your total indifference to obvious and standard house rules that has got my goat.

Unfortunately, whatever I say won't change that, so I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should have Strassa'd the river, you would have had it.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

MH,

"I will consider trying to change in this respect and follow Yeti's lead to simply do my own thing and not worry about what other mods have decided as procedures that should be followed, when I think the situation is unimportant in the grand scheme of things."

LOL.

Seriously, though, I guess all I'm saying is that in this case rather than being a "serious concern" I would have just said something like "Yeti, the rules are there for a reason, and preventing Melch from being unable to post for a few hours is not a good reason to break them. Mods should not be doing that, and if this is done again it may be grounds for removing you as a mod" or something like that.

I don't think we are really disagreeing that much, just that I sometimes think everyone could do for a bit of relaxing around here is all.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

Shut up and deal the next hand. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

all,

i agree with pretty much everything mike has said (see diablo's point 1) and i agree 110% with mat's post.

yeti,

why NOT leave the notes there? unless the notes are blatantly false (i.e. never happened at all, haha jman [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]), the worst thing that can happen is there's maybe 100 characters of text stored on this site which has 10 million posts. whoop-de-doo.

why do you refuse to consider the possibility that you are wrong about Melchiades? there was a time when not everyone realized all the bad things about Degen, and at one point Degen was a valuable strat poster. yvesaint was also a valuable strat poster at one point. I am not accusing Melchiades of anything (in fact my only interactions with him have been nothing but positive) but on the chance that three months from now someone else accuses Melchiades of spamming the notes should be there to make the mod who is notified go "heyyyyyyyy wait a minute, maybe the false alarm 3 months ago wasn't really a false alarm".

[ QUOTE ]
if the positions were reversed, i would reply to this thread with

'heh, oops, guess i acted a bit quickly there. sorry, thanks for tidying up after me'

[/ QUOTE ]

this assumes that you are not the one who is wrong. perhaps, you are. (and perhaps not, again, i am not accusing Melchiades of anything) even if there is only a 1% chance you are wrong, it's still better to leave the notes.

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

Us mods should NEVER delete another mods user notes! Only a Red should delete any notes! Was a backup copy of the notes kept?

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: FAO MH - re: Melchiades
 

in the OP..