I\'m becoming a live player
 

Someone good told me limping in tournaments is good, so I decided to limp every spot that seemed reasonable once antes came in in my last 109r to try it out.

Thoughts on these limps?

Hand 2: HJ-1 is charder, button(the raiser) is busto_soon
Hand 3: Open limper is unknown to me, button is charder

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG (t11715)
UTG+1 (t10672)
Hero (t3808)
MP2 (t5986)
CO (t8525)
Button (t7350)
SB (t10615)
BB (t9704)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t300, MP2 calls t300, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t3025</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: t1100

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG (t9222)
Hero (t7841)
MP1 (t18786)
MP2 (t9239)
CO (t13425)
Button (t22467)
SB (t11665)
BB (t25985)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t400, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t400, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t2075</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t7841</font>


View Archive: http://www.flopturnriver.com/
Poker-Hand-History-
Converter-Output-374777.html
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 (t15790)
MP3 (t9297)
Hero (t8316)
Button (t18861)
SB (t8889)
BB (t14500)
UTG (t23342)
UTG+1 (t12140)
MP1 (t26060)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t400, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t400, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t1600) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t1600) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t1200</font>, Hero folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t1600

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

title should read "I'm becoming kwob"

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

[ QUOTE ]
title should read "I'm becoming fischman"

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

1 and 3 are really bad IMO.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

heh, this reminds me that I really wanted to play an entire tourney (was thinking the warmup) where I'm not allowed to raise preflop unless it's a shove. If I remember I'll be doing this Sunday.

Also, I think 1 is horrible, 2 is good, and 3 is bad.

Steve

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

I think the last one is bad but the first two are fine.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

1 and 3 are absolutely awful imo. 2 is not as bad but it's not good either///

I don't know who gave you that advice, but it's not sound. The idea to start limping a lot when the antes kick in? WTF? When the antes kick in, you want to be stealing the blinds/antes with these hands not praying to see a fortunate flop.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

[ QUOTE ]
1 and 3 are absolutely awful imo. 2 is not as bad but it's not good either

[/ QUOTE ]

wowowow 1 is so bad [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

they all look horrible to me... at least u think outside the box tho. better that u did this then never tried something new.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

utg is the new button and open limping is the new resteal.

The only successful player who i know open limps KJ, KQ kind of hands is danny ryan, and i still think it sucks.

Obv you were just experimenting with a new idea, your inclusion of only unsuccessful hands makes your opinion on it pretty obvious =). I do agree with ansky that it is good to play unorthodox styles to see why they dont/do work.]

edit 2 sucks worse than 3 wtf is everyone all excited about 2 for?

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

I actually think 1/2 are much worse than 3, but that's mostly because i'm way more averse to open limping than limping behind.

I think stuff like this might be more appropriate in a tournament that's not the 100r where people will brutalize you. I like that you tried it out though.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

It seems like your M/BBs would be really important when it comes to open limping. I saw a player who I was told was durr limping alot deep in the 1k with 40ish bbs, I assumed this was because he thought he had a post flop advantage. I open limp very infrequently so I'm not sure what spots would be good or bad. I occasionally open limp the button when I'm sure the sb and bb are reshoving a wide range (I also mix in stronger hands/big pairs so that its not exploitable). I really dont open limp much in ep except when I'm deepstacked a passive table or I misclick. I think I'll continue with this until someone can show me why its not optimal.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

I think hand 2,3 are OK, I hate hand 1 tho. Youre def too short imo, if u have somewhere between 16-35BBs I would think its OK too.


OT:
Beat- missed my flight today (u missed a good time last night)
Brag- staying at Wynn macau now

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

Did you open limp any other hands vs busto_soon in that tournament besides the JKd? Is there any value in creating this image to resteal?

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

I think hand 2 is miserable. He's not folding and surely KQ is way behind his range for raising 2 limpers.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

The KJdd hand was before busto was moved to the table.

How do people play each of these hands?

I was more or less just looking for chances to limp, to ask peoples opinions.

I think in hand 1 if I'm like 8-900 chips deeper its fine, I probably tend to fold generally.

Hand 2, for people saying its a bad limp, do you open here or do you fold? With a 19BB stack, some people I know have begun folding that if there are more stacks in the 10-25BB range behind, and some people I know just fold it as their default play. For those of you who do open, do you think limping is better than folding?

I really think that limping here with some agressive players behind is fine since in a tourney like the 109r, so many people isolate overly wide, and expect you to only limp shove absolute monsters, whereas other players isolate tight enough that you save yourself a few bets if they get their AA/AK etc.


The 3rd one I just put in the thread because it involved limping, do you prefer isolating or folding?


[ QUOTE ]
I think stuff like this might be more appropriate in a tournament that's not the 100r where people will brutalize you. I like that you tried it out though.


[/ QUOTE ]

I really think I disagree with the 100r is a tourney where everyone plays overly aggressive, and likes putting all the money in first, so with hands that don't fare well against reasonable shoving ranges, limp shoving against people who fold a lot of their raising range seems reasonable unless I'm misunderstanding.

Also, for the KJdd hand, what % of the time would you estimate it folds to the blinds? If you know that HJ through button are folding, how much extra more value(if any) do you think raising to like 900 gains as opposed to limping?

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

In particularly aggressive tournaments like the 50/100r, I quite like limping in LP with 15-20 BBs, and KQ (suited or not) is one of the best hands to do it with because your hand is well defined on the flop ; it's not strong enough to raise with the intention of calling a re-shove (IMO) ; but it feels too strong to fold and you can re-jam a lot of blind raisers. I think limp &gt; 3BB raise or fold here. The real question would be is it &gt; jam.

Less sure about this in EP, but these things are always worth trying out.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

I get kinda interested when respected players say they *never* do something. That statement in itself makes you exploitable.

The issue I see with these three examples isn't the limp, its the lack of reasoning as to why Hero limped in each case.

In the first example, I believe limping is a poor choice due to # of BBs Hero has, position in the hand, and stack size of those who follow. Also, you didn't seem to have a plan (folding is a default condition here, not a plan)for what to do next. Hero didn't say if V1 or V2 raises, I fold. If BB raises, I call with position or re-raise, etc.

While most of the time limping isn't the optimal line, there are definitely situations where limping behind is as simple as a current odds calculation. Open limping is a seldom used tool in my playbook, but it has worked in the past when the stars were in alignment.

Just my $0.02

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

I think one of the problems with KQ is that on so many of the flops that it hits, you can take down the pot with 32, but I do agree with you since to many people 3bet A2 but not KJ.

I have trouble imagining a case where shove &gt;limp &gt;raise-evaluate, but I could be wrong.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

wtf is everyone saying hand 2 is good for? Am I in twilight zone, we limp in EP for 1/20th of our stack with KQ and then limp reraise when the opponent is nearly pot committed? (getting about 2-1)

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get kinda interested when respected players say they *never* do something. That statement in itself makes you exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely untrue. I never limp 72o UTG, am I now exploitable?

I never limp reraise preflop. However I never open limp so who cares, it's not really exploitable.

I never fold with 80% of my stack in the pot.

etc etc, I could go on and on about things that I may never do that don't make my play exploitable at all. Also I may open limp sometimes I was just using it as an example.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get kinda interested when respected players say they *never* do something. That statement in itself makes you exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely untrue. I never limp 72o UTG, am I now exploitable?

I never limp reraise preflop. However I never open limp so who cares, it's not really exploitable.

I never fold with 80% of my stack in the pot.

etc etc, I could go on and on about things that I may never do that don't make my play exploitable at all. Also I may open limp sometimes I was just using it as an example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be such a nit. I was not directing my thoughts at anyone individual, but the jist of several posts that limping/open limping is *ALWAYS* terrible. BTW, I even put the never in ** notation to try to avoid a nit attack.

Also, saying you never open limp and then later saying you may open limp shows an amazing lack of creativity - but I'm just being a *nit*

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get kinda interested when respected players say they *never* do something. That statement in itself makes you exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
wowowowow NO it does NOT. by not doin every possible action at every possible situation does not even come remotely close to being exploitable

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get kinda interested when respected players say they *never* do something. That statement in itself makes you exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely untrue. I never limp 72o UTG, am I now exploitable?

I never limp reraise preflop. However I never open limp so who cares, it's not really exploitable.

I never fold with 80% of my stack in the pot.

etc etc, I could go on and on about things that I may never do that don't make my play exploitable at all. Also I may open limp sometimes I was just using it as an example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be such a nit. I was not directing my thoughts at anyone individual, but the jist of several posts that limping/open limping is *ALWAYS* terrible. BTW, I even put the never in ** notation to try to avoid a nit attack.

Also, saying you never open limp and then later saying you may open limp shows an amazing lack of creativity - but I'm just being a *nit*

[/ QUOTE ]

wait what?

95% of good 6 max nl cash game players will never ever open limp.

is that exploitable? no.

if they only open limped w/ specific types of hands, is that exploitable? yes.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

[ QUOTE ]
they all look horrible to me... at least u think outside the box tho. better that u did this then never tried something new.

[/ QUOTE ]

my thoughts to a T. i just started limping the button hu, and it's revolutionized my game basically.

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

i agree with ansky, but question (for ansky): do you never open limp in tourneys? live/online

Re: I\'m becoming a live player
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get kinda interested when respected players say they *never* do something. That statement in itself makes you exploitable.

The issue I see with these three examples isn't the limp, its the lack of reasoning as to why Hero limped in each case.

In the first example, I believe limping is a poor choice due to # of BBs Hero has, position in the hand, and stack size of those who follow. Also, you didn't seem to have a plan (folding is a default condition here, not a plan)for what to do next. Hero didn't say if V1 or V2 raises, I fold. If BB raises, I call with position or re-raise, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't really want to post my reasoning since good reasoning behind making a play doesn't make it good, I met one guy who spent lunch talking about how overlimping KK very deep is great, and most 2+2ers would probably have been very satisfied after listening to his reasoning.

Anyways, hand 1, I don't think I can open profitably, but all the players behind me were tight enough that I think I will get to see the flop with the blinds a large % of the time with a hand that crushes their ranges + with my stack, most people won't be opening hands that they can't comfortably call a shove with.

Hand 2: Shove over charder and busto, fold to the others, I think they will be opening a wide enough range that I can definitely shove quite profitably, and if I were to open, I think they will be reraising with ranges such that I'd end up folding unhappily.

Hand 3: Shove if charder isolates since people love folding getting less than 2:1, and love isolating limpers