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-   -   blind battle, auto stack off? (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=556243)

irockhoess 11-28-2007 07:19 AM

blind battle, auto stack off?
 
villain has been at my tables for about 20-30 minutes. he has been very aggro preflop in the blinds, but postflop has been slowing down some. i dont recognize the screenname, but it seems familiar so hes probably a regular. who likes to call off here? what about the turn bet and sizing?

Full Tilt Poker, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $1,085.50
UTG: $1,799.75
BTN: $750
SB: $1,391.50

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
2 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $30</font>, Hero calls $20

Flop: ($60) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $40</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $150</font>, SB calls $110

Turn: ($360) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $260</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $1,140</font>, Hero...

its like 650 more to me. i had trouble putting him on any range here, that would call this board oop then c/r an ace. i think the turn is very awkward. if i bet, i think he always raises or folds, but i cant figure out a hand he c/r the turn with that i am beating... maybe Ax of spades. Any help constructing a range and a good turn plan would be appreciated, thanks.

emil3000 11-28-2007 07:38 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
I think I fold...

irockhoess 11-28-2007 07:56 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
ill reserve the results for a little while, hopefully we can get some good views here with explanations cause i think this is a tricky spot.

Nick Royale 11-28-2007 07:57 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
Axss/A8 is the only hand I can come up with, but I guess your small bet when the A falls might make him inclined to push some kind of draw/combo draw and the board is really drawy. There's not many better hands possible either (AT/A9?) since he shouldn't be slowplaying this flop esecially oop. Maybe he thought his 98 or whatever gained fe. I call

irockhoess 11-28-2007 08:06 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
i would think A8s (and prob Axs) oop would push the flop rather than c/r the turn. I think the only hands i am beating are a random Axs like you said, or maybe like 97/10 7 that are waiting for a "blank" turn to get it in. i would think if you had two pair on this board you would play it fast out of position. i dunno im pretty stumped.

Kala1928 11-28-2007 08:23 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
3betting / jamming the flop with A8hh has to be awful with these stacks.

Ship Ship McGipp 11-28-2007 08:26 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
man, this is a weird spot and a bad turn card for you.

i'll be honest, without further reads, i can't imagine calling or folding being wrong. i think either is fine.

Jinx 11-28-2007 08:34 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
I think villain has aces up a lot here.

Nick Royale 11-28-2007 08:38 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
[ QUOTE ]
i would think A8s (and prob Axs) oop would push the flop rather than c/r the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a valid point but more true for combodraws (fd+gs etc). He might call Axss and A8 on the flop to see a turn and decide he must felt it when he hits TP.

And as said not 3-betting the flop with a stronger made hand than T9 would be bad, not 3-betting a worse but good hand like T7 is bad as well. Limiting his range of better hands to mostly aces up only probably makes this a call imo, even though a slim one.

1o BoY 11-28-2007 08:59 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
I think any made straight plays like this or A8.

Requin 11-28-2007 09:17 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
Yeah I hate this spot. Honestly I usually bet/fold but feel sick when I do. I think someone good told me a while ago that that's bad, can't remember who but that haunts me to this day...


I guess some reasoning would hurt. I bet because I figure NFD and pair + oesd might call me. I fold because I expect worse hands (except maybe worse 2 pair) to be just calling, what with the showdown value and draw value. If you think they feel too shallow to just c/c, then bet/fold is bad obviously, but I usually assume they don't.

Darkfolder 11-28-2007 09:21 AM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
Seriously, b/f this turn is terrible. Think about how often you fire this turncard with air, then you realize that you HAVE to call this c/r against any decent player.

SlowHabit 11-28-2007 03:05 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
Every time I call here against a decent player, I end up going on tilt.

coldi 11-28-2007 03:13 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
i check behind on the turn and try to catch a bluff on the river by a missed FD or top pair. this is the perfect card for him to bluff with so i wouldnt bet it unless i want to get checkraised...

willw9 11-28-2007 03:19 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
Does villain ever turn a hand like JT into a bluff here? Would that be terrible at all?

Irish Mafia 11-28-2007 04:03 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
[ QUOTE ]
i check behind on the turn and try to catch a bluff on the river by a missed FD or top pair. this is the perfect card for him to bluff with so i wouldnt bet it unless i want to get checkraised...

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf. Ur gonna check back 2 pair in a blinds battle on one of the drawiest boards of all time?

As played I think you have to call (but i wouldn't be happy). I think flopped straights play the hand this way - but so do big combo draws that think a) hero is full of [censored]; b) they have fold equity with such a "strong" line. I actually discount better two pair - b/c I think he would lead A-T type hands on the turn (as opposed to cr'ing ai). A turn CRAI w/ aces up is ALMOST a bluff given the board and OP's line (a line in which he continued to fire when the A hit). [I also discount sets - as I'd think he'd 3-bet any set on the flop].

You are going to get shown the nuts here quite a bit - but also combo draws. Given the size of the pot I think i'd call.

Irish Mafia 11-28-2007 04:05 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
How long did he take to call the flop raise? What about the turn CR?

Also, I think turn bet-size is ok.

willw9 11-28-2007 04:07 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
Good analysis JPT, but you really think he leads with aces up on the turn?

Irish Mafia 11-28-2007 04:15 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
Well I don't know villain and maybe i'm waaaay off. But given how draw-heavy the bd is seems like a decent spot to re-take the lead w/ top 2, and charge OP to draw. I dunno. I guess A-T could be played like this against an aggro opponent (which OP seemingly is). No other two pair makes sense though (he wouldn't call flop w/ A-7/A-9, right?)

But he would probably take this line w/ hands like AJss, A8ss, 8sXs, QJss, AxXs. Its a very tricky and interesting spot - but I think i'd begrudgingly call.

ikestoys 11-28-2007 04:16 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
if you start off with the assumption he folds A9 to the flop raise, then its a call because then his range is pretty much draws/A10

also his willingness to risk a free card on this board makes me think he's not huge (as in, no straights)

rand 11-28-2007 04:51 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
i think the straights occasionally play this way

all A up prolly do (but he prolly folds alot of the A9/7 combos on the flop)

and all NFD combos

i think your prolly around 20% against this range and it seems like you need to be about 25% so it looks like a close fold imo

fees 11-28-2007 05:00 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
Am I the only one having trouble finding a hand for this villain to NOT 3b thee flop but c/r this turn? like A10 and str8s are the only thing that make sense to me. WTF?

Unknown Soldier 11-28-2007 05:04 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
b/c the turn not too likely he continues with A7, A9 is possible, but meh.

You'll see hands like KT enough.

irockhoess 11-28-2007 05:36 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
the problem i had was that i don't think villain is ever really bluffing/semi bluffing here. i think if hes shoving with A8 of spades or something he thinks its the best hand. I dont think he expects me to fold any good hand here because i think his semi bluffing opportunities were so much bigger on the flop (more fold equity, i can be raising with a lot of weakish hands knowing the board is rough to play out of position etc.).

irockhoess 11-28-2007 05:38 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
fees- i agree. i really really had a hard time, even hours after the hand let alone in 15 seconds, putting villain on a hand. He had been pretty aggro preflop, but postflop he wasn't too crazy. He also was playing his hands fast tho, so i discounted a lot of good but not great made hands on the flop to just call oop. I dunno maybe aces up or a weird hand like a set of aces play like this. I think if hes going to semi bluff, most players would shove the flop instead of c/r this turn with our stack sizes.

irockhoess 11-28-2007 05:44 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
irish mafia- ya im not sure what to think here. to who said check on the turn, that crossed my mind, but i figured that would take a lot of value out of the hands because id basically be letting him draw or get away from draws cheaply. i think i kind of "have" to bet here, even tho i had no idea what i was going to do if he raised such a weird card haha. his timing was pretty consistent, he shoved over after timing down 3/4 of the way on full tilt which is how long he took on the flop to decide.

if you were in his shoes tho, do you really run a delayed semi bluff out of position? with how aggro games are today, i'd think in position he might "slow play" his draw, but out of position i hardly ever see it.

i think the fact that i bet smallish may give him some perception of fold equity, but on these boards im so likely to already have a made hand or such a big draw that im not folding once i bet the turn that i just dont think he ever expects me to fold here.

irockhoess 11-28-2007 05:48 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
rand- even against the NFDs, he still has a ton of equity for one street against my hand. I think i agree its a fold with you. i think some of the time ill be like 70% to win, but a lot of the time im down to like 12% equity. unless he has a set or Ax where x is a 9 or 10, im almost guarenteed to have 6 outs, which leads to not a lot of equity when im behind.

irockhoess 11-28-2007 05:49 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
ikes - why do you say that since hes willing to take a free card, hes not on the straight? i dont understand that part.

blankoblanco 11-28-2007 05:53 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
i'm guessing because there's a FD, he's oop and there's a load of cards that could kill his action. ike can correct me if i'm wrong

Kevin Browne 11-28-2007 06:16 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
This is a great hand to debate, and is so opponent driven on whether to call or not. If you are saying he's very aggressive pre then he is repopping 77, 99, 1010, aa for sure and most likely a10? What is his overall aggression factor post???? Turn Aggression factor???

quickfetus 11-28-2007 06:23 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
I'd definitely call.

Disclaimer: I only play this high live.

TheWorstPlayer 11-28-2007 06:27 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
i have to call in a blind battle against an aggro opponent even if he has been 'slowing down some postflop'. agree with AEMFJ though that it's pretty close either way. and of course bet the turn.

aislephive 11-28-2007 06:38 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
I call and don't think it's really that close.

irockhoess 11-28-2007 06:45 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
this was like 15 or 20 minutes into him joining, so i had no reliable stats to go on. i havent been playing ftp much lately, but in the time i have i havent seen him at 5/10 before.

i think i agree with those that said its pretty close either way and my decision probably won't be really bad/good no matter what i do. I ended up timing down and decided to fold. i couldnt put him on a range i was beating in the 20 seconds i had to decide to warrant calling on this board. at the time i felt bad about folding, but i don't think it was too bad and am not going to beat myself up over it. thanks to everyone that contributed.

nuggetz87 11-28-2007 06:59 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
i think you have to call just given how you played it.

i do think he has aces up a bunch though unfortunately. just can't fold it bvb because there's other stuff he can have.

TheJackale 11-28-2007 08:12 PM

Re: blind battle, auto stack off?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I call and don't think it's really that close.

[/ QUOTE ]


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