The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

Chicago Tribune

This is a little old, so I'm surprised there wasn't a thread on it. The DC Federal Appellate Court threw out a longstanding DC handgun ban on 2nd Amendment grounds. This was decribed as the most sweeping interpretation of the 2nd Amendment ever.

Since this ruling conflicts with other Circuit Court rulings, there is also an excellent chance the Supreme Court will hear the case and if they do, similar laws across the country are in jeopardy. Gun opponents urged DC not to appeal the ruling to avoid giving the Supreme Court a chance, but DC has elected to appeal and they are awaiting word from the Supreme Court on whether they'll hear the case.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
Chicago Tribune

This is a little old, so I'm surprised there wasn't a thread on it. The DC Federal Appellate Court threw out a longstanding DC handgun ban on 2nd Amendment grounds. This was decribed as the most sweeping interpretation of the 2nd Amendment ever.

Since this ruling conflicts with other Circuit Court rulings, there is also an excellent chance the Supreme Court will hear the case and if they do, similar laws across the country are in jeopardy. Gun opponents urged DC not to appeal the ruling to avoid giving the Supreme Court a chance, but DC has elected to appeal and they are awaiting word from the Supreme Court on whether they'll hear the case.

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I can legally own my guns now when I move to DC?

Sweet!

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

As long as you actually live inside the district instead of in Maryland or Virginia. The DC Circuit doesn't cover much geographically. Don't forget about the follow up law getting around the ruling if DC loses in the Supreme Court.

Edit: You could always let yourself get arrested for violating a local gun ban and have your lawyer use the ruling as precedent to get your arrest tossed. MD, NC and Virginia are all in the same Circuit.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

The Death Penalty would deter crime if it was enacted publicly within 24 hours of sentencing. You can thank the appeals process for the loss of deterence.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

The Death Penalty would deter crime if it was enacted publicly within 24 hours of sentencing. You can thank the appeals process for the loss of deterence.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

See, the way I read the story is that the 2nd amendment is like a man dangling over the side of a cliff who happened to grab a stronger root. He's still dangling over the side of a cliff, hoping that the Supreme Court is benevolent enough to not step on his fingers and maybe, just maybe, help him up. Maybe. Hardly what I'd call alive and well.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

The Death Penalty would deter crime if it was enacted publicly within 24 hours of sentencing. You can thank the appeals process for the loss of deterence.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can also thank it for saving hundreds of innocent people from Death Row, so I'd rather not lose it.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
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two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

The Death Penalty would deter crime if it was enacted publicly within 24 hours of sentencing. You can thank the appeals process for the loss of deterence.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can also thank it for saving hundreds of innocent people from Death Row, so I'd rather not lose it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hundreds? I'd wager that the appeals process vacates the death penalty based on technicalities far more often than it does based on innocence.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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Hundreds? I'd wager that the appeals process vacates the death penalty based on technicalities far more often than it does based on innocence.

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50 or so murder cases exonerated via DNA evidence just from the Innocence Project alone - and IP typically takes cases where appeals have already been exhausted.

Those are not all DP cases, but the statistics do support me on this; I'll have to dig some link up if you need one, though, since I don't have Lexis/Westlaw anymore.

edit: (man, I've edited this post like 5 times already): http://www2.law.columbia.edu/instruc...man/index.html is linked off Wiki and is the classic resource for death penalty opponents.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not banning guns but not having a lot less guns around certainly reduces gun violence.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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Hundreds? I'd wager that the appeals process vacates the death penalty based on technicalities far more often than it does based on innocence.

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The fact that most appeals process rely on technicalities has nothing to do with the fact that it can save innocent lifes.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

The Death Penalty would deter crime if it was enacted publicly within 24 hours of sentencing. You can thank the appeals process for the loss of deterence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but you have no idea if that is true. You just think it would be, you have no evidence to support that theory.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

Executions should be public, otherwise: out of sight out of mind. Something as severe as taking a person's life should not be done with any type of secrecy whatsoever. All of the public should have the right to see, scrutinize and criticize.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

If this makes it to he SC, what are the expected votes / result?


Its not often I like Scalia, but this might be it.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this makes it to he SC, what are the expected votes / result?


Its not often I like Scalia, but this might be it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone can form a good guess. The Supreme Court hasn't decided a 2nd amendment case since 1939. However, given the general ideological bent, the decision will be 6-3 or 5-4.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

I wonder if this will impact California gun laws at all. If pistol laws are in violation of the 2A then 1/2 the laws in California are in violation.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

I just thought of something. As far as I'm aware, the Supreme Court has never "incorporated" the 2nd Amendment though the 14th Amendment, which means that at this moment, the 2nd Amendment does not apply to states and municipalities. DC is a special case because its a federal territory. I suppose its simple enough for the SCOTUS to incorporate the 2nd Amendment, but it is an additional hurdle.

But if the gun rights advocates win in the Supreme Court and get the 2nd Amendment incorporated, then the decision would absolutely have a big impact on California gun laws.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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I just thought of something. As far as I'm aware, the Supreme Court has never "incorporated" the 2nd Amendment though the 14th Amendment, which means that at this moment, the 2nd Amendment does not apply to states and municipalities.

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Correct --- which makes 2nd Amendment jurisprudence at the state level an interesting quandry for conservatives. On one hand, they generally think greater access to firearms is a good thing. On the other, they hate the incorporation doctrine and don't think the feds should be sticking their noses into the various state laws...

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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Hundreds? I'd wager that the appeals process vacates the death penalty based on technicalities far more often than it does based on innocence.

[/ QUOTE ]

50 or so murder cases exonerated via DNA evidence just from the Innocence Project alone - and IP typically takes cases where appeals have already been exhausted.

Those are not all DP cases, but the statistics do support me on this; I'll have to dig some link up if you need one, though, since I don't have Lexis/Westlaw anymore.

edit: (man, I've edited this post like 5 times already): http://www2.law.columbia.edu/instruc...man/index.html is linked off Wiki and is the classic resource for death penalty opponents.

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My response was with regard to the appeals process, not reopening old cases because of new technology. Obviously that is going to result in a temporary rush as the justice system catches up.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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Hundreds? I'd wager that the appeals process vacates the death penalty based on technicalities far more often than it does based on innocence.

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The fact that most appeals process rely on technicalities has nothing to do with the fact that it can save innocent lifes.

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I didnt say it did. You also cant say that letting criminals off on technicalities didnt cost far more innocent lives after their release than innocent men convicted. Virtually he only criminals who are given the death penalty are those who's crimes are so egregious and/or who represent an ongoing threat to society.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not banning guns but not having a lot less guns around certainly reduces gun violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, having less guns around will reduce GUN violence. However, it will not reduce acts of violence. As a matter of fact, they will increase. One thing that cannot be argued is that CCW laws work. Its a statistical fact, whenever handguns become easy for law-abiding citizens to obtain and carry, street crimes drop.

Studies have been conducted in several prisons concerning convicts who're locked up for crimes consisting of burglary/robbery and those studies have shown proof positive that when a criminal is considering mugging you and raping your gf on a public street, his biggest fear is that you might be packing heat. When a burglar is considering kicking your door down, his greatest fear is that you may have a gun.

I prefer a world where criminals act in secret, because they are terrified of the public at large, to a world where law abiding citizens are afraid to walk down the street alone after the sun begins to set.

This isn't an argument about guns, this is about choice in personal defense products.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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You can thank the appeals process for the loss of deterence.

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You can also thank it for saving hundreds of innocent people from Death Row, so I'd rather not lose it.

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QFT

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just thought of something. As far as I'm aware, the Supreme Court has never "incorporated" the 2nd Amendment though the 14th Amendment, which means that at this moment, the 2nd Amendment does not apply to states and municipalities.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has never made sense. The 1st Amendment is deemed to apply to states despite the fact that it specifically singles out Congress. The 2nd Amendment singles out nobody, declaring only that the right shall not be infringed (period.) If anything, the 2nd should apply to all levels and the 1st should not, not the other way around.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

Wiki on the Incorporation Doctrine

The Supreme Court has incrementally incorporated most of the Constitution over the last hundred years. However, the view that carried the day is that amendments should only be incorporated if abridging the right would "shock the conscience" of the court. Since the Supreme Court hasn't decided a 2nd Amendment case in 70 years, it shouldn't be surprising the 2nd is a lower priority civil right.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

The Death Penalty would deter crime if it was enacted publicly within 24 hours of sentencing. You can thank the appeals process for the loss of deterence.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can also thank it for saving hundreds of innocent people from Death Row, so I'd rather not lose it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hundreds? I'd wager that the appeals process vacates the death penalty based on technicalities far more often than it does based on innocence.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you'd rather kill X innocent men than not kill Y guilty men on technicalities (who still serve life sentances).

please fill in X and Y for me.

Barron

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not banning guns but not having a lot less guns around certainly reduces gun violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that banning guns doesn't necessarily result in having fewer guns around. For some reason, criminals often don't turn in their guns after they become illegal.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

Iron:

I'm still kind of surprised that your usually consistent advocacy of governmental paternalism breaks for the second amendment. If I might play devil's advocate, why do you support liberal gun laws, considering the many arguments on the left for their lack of usefulness, danger, and the apparent success of gun bans in other countries?

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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Chicago Tribune

This is a little old, so I'm surprised there wasn't a thread on it. The DC Federal Appellate Court threw out a longstanding DC handgun ban on 2nd Amendment grounds. This was decribed as the most sweeping interpretation of the 2nd Amendment ever.

Since this ruling conflicts with other Circuit Court rulings, there is also an excellent chance the Supreme Court will hear the case and if they do, similar laws across the country are in jeopardy. Gun opponents urged DC not to appeal the ruling to avoid giving the Supreme Court a chance, but DC has elected to appeal and they are awaiting word from the Supreme Court on whether they'll hear the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can legally own my guns now when I move to DC?

Sweet!

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus you can be disenfranchised here, its pretty much paradise.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

The Death Penalty would deter crime if it was enacted publicly within 24 hours of sentencing. You can thank the appeals process for the loss of deterence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure why you think this. It is unfathomable to me to consider a person, on the verge of committing one of the very small number of crimes for which he would be eligible for the death penalty, thinking to himself "I got no problem spending the rest of my life in prison for this, seems like a go, but being executed? [censored] it, I think I'll just go see Superbad instead."

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence

[/ QUOTE ]

Australia had fewer than a dozen deaths attributed to hand guns last year.

[ QUOTE ]
2.) The death penalty deters crime

[/ QUOTE ]

The death penalty deters nothing and is more expensive than housing them in prison for life, when you take into consider the appeals process.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
Executions should be public, otherwise: out of sight out of mind. Something as severe as taking a person's life should not be done with any type of secrecy whatsoever. All of the public should have the right to see, scrutinize and criticize.

[/ QUOTE ]

The death penalty hasn't helped Texas. They've executed over 400 since reenacting it. They've even installed an express line for the more violent murders. Yet, the murders keep taking place.

If you take 100 murders, where a white guy killed a white guy, and those murders were similar to 100 murders where a black guy killed a black guy, you would find more blacks getting the death penalty than whites.

Imagine if it was black killing white.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

Makes no difference. As soon as the masses needs them, aka, Katrina, the government will come, and hire help, to take them from you.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

My paternalism streak is intact, there are several gun laws I support. The main reason why I support the 2nd Amendment is because I support the Constitution. We make sacrifices in the interest of other civil liberties: criminals release on 4th amendment grounds, etc. To a certain extent we are stuck with the 2nd Amendment.

Also, I'm undecided on whether broad ownership of guns is a net plus or minus on public safety.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
two biggest myths of the politics of crime -

1.) Banning guns reduces gun violence

[/ QUOTE ]

Australia had fewer than a dozen deaths attributed to hand guns last year.

[/ QUOTE ]

This says nothing of how many they would have had if the right to hand gun ownership were not infringed.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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Also, I'm undecided on whether broad ownership of guns is a net plus or minus on public safety.

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I think a survey of school shooting deaths where innocents carried arms vs where innocents couldn't carry arms should give you a good idea.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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Australia had fewer than a dozen deaths attributed to hand guns last year.

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Curious where you got this statistic, as several sources I've looked at say around 300.

While still relatively low, 300 != "fewer than a dozen"

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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To a certain extent we are stuck with the 2nd Amendment.



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meh.

i dont want to cut and paste my response to the EDF thread, but-- the constitution didn't grant us the right to defend ourselves. Its a god-given right, natural right, whatever you want to call it. A govt can't take it away.

The freedoms of religion and speech and redress are similar, however it is much easier to defend those with a rifle in hand.

I'm very confident young Iron will "get it" eventually. O/U on when???

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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As long as you actually live inside the district instead of in Maryland or Virginia. The DC Circuit doesn't cover much geographically. Don't forget about the follow up law getting around the ruling if DC loses in the Supreme Court.

Edit: You could always let yourself get arrested for violating a local gun ban and have your lawyer use the ruling as precedent to get your arrest tossed. MD, NC and Virginia are all in the same Circuit.

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thank god virginia already has proper gun laws (aka very few) unlike the death traps that are d.c. and maryland.

Re: The 2nd Amendment is alive and well
 

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As long as you actually live inside the district instead of in Maryland or Virginia. The DC Circuit doesn't cover much geographically. Don't forget about the follow up law getting around the ruling if DC loses in the Supreme Court.

Edit: You could always let yourself get arrested for violating a local gun ban and have your lawyer use the ruling as precedent to get your arrest tossed. MD, NC and Virginia are all in the same Circuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

thank god virginia already has proper gun laws (aka very few) unlike the death traps that are d.c. and maryland.

[/ QUOTE ]


QFT, got kinda lost last night, drove around in West Baltimore for a few minutes before getting the F out. Kept thinking that I wish I had a glock at my side just in case