Re: $16 - KK on @$#$% A-high flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
villain has donkish stats he could have a lot of hands here including draws and pairs. you want to bet to fold those obviously because a hand like 89 has about 20-25% equity against us and will probably cost us an additional bet if villain hits on turn or river. also if villain isnt a total retard he wont start betting with those unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]
villain has pretty donkish stats but you suppose he is no retard?
how come?
also, sure sometimes he will have more than 2 outs here, but that's rare and since we try to play good against his whole range, the check is our best option.

Re: $16 - KK on @$#$% A-high flop
 

he s 40/21 over 150 hands so i think to put these hands into his range is reasonable. even a retard might know that he shouldnt bet with a hand when he only gets called by a better hand and is ahead otherwise.

Re: $16 - KK on @$#$% A-high flop
 

Why would he play craphands against a 3 bet pf if he knows that?

Re: $16 - KK on @$#$% A-high flop
 

the thing is imo, that if we check and then call a bet later we might as well lead out and lose the money there. i m obviously not putting any more money in after the bet.
it s kind of a trade off between the money we lose by letting him catch up and the money we win by letting him bluff later on if we check.

Re: $16 - KK on @$#$% A-high flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is imo, that if we check and then call a bet later we might as well lead out and lose the money there. i m obviously not putting any more money in after the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's how many ppl think, and I assume the hand get's way easier to play if you just bet the flop.
But you'll be surprised what hands bet the turn and check the river afterwards, just because they "felt you were weak" on the flop.
It's kinda the passive valuetown.

Re: $16 - KK on @$#$% A-high flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like checking behind here. It's a WA/WB situation and a cbet commits us to the hand. If we fold, we are pretty wrecked for chips (we'll have around 500-600, which should be avoided). Call small bets on turn and try to get to showdown as cheap as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is excellent advice. Maybe put a bet in on the river, but in principle, with any hand you're in, I believe the best aim is either to get all your chips in or to get as few in as you can. At least at the lower limits, the chips you lose are going to hurt you more than the value you gain when you correctly value bet. This isn't like a rule or anything, but I think as a guideline, it's pretty decent.

Re: $16 - KK on @$#$% A-high flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is imo, that if we check and then call a bet later we might as well lead out and lose the money there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but man it's horrible to get bluffraised here and fold away the best hand. And it's not so great to bet, get called, check it through the turn and then face a decent bet on the river. Often you'll check behind flop, face a small bet from something rubbish on the turn, and will then get it checked to you on the river. In each of these three cases, you can face a hand like 77 or something that paired on the flop. I want to show down against his range if I can, because there's plenty of nonace hands in there, but I don't want to pay the earth to the acerag hands if I can help it.

Re: $16 - KK on @$#$% A-high flop
 

If we bet only stronger hands will play back.
If we check and call later, we get value by weaker hands.
It's easy, isn't it?

Re: $16 - KK on @$#$% A-high flop
 

'the thing is imo, that if we check and then call a bet later we might as well lead out and lose the money there'

Disagree. We are almost always behind when we bet this flop. If we check, it could induce a bet from a non-A hand reading us for weakness. It could also let a hand like KQ hit a Q and pay a small vbet off on future streets

'it s kind of a trade off between the money we lose by letting him catch up and the money we win by letting him bluff later on if we check. '

We dont lose money when he 'catches up' - his best chance of 'catching up' in this hand is when he 3 outs an A, more often than not he has already 'caught' or we are way ahead. I think we win far more by letting him bluff vs losing when he 'catches.'