The MANIAC and the TAG
 

Bay 101 20/40:

BB: Me

UTG: Fish who doesn't matter

UTG+1: Super crazy maniac of the 99th order. I haven't seen anyone this crazy in a long, long time, maybe never. He's on mega-monkey-tilt of the worst kind, the table started up 20 min. ago and he's already stuck 2 racks. So far he's gone 6-bets preflop with K6 and then another 5-6 bets on a 456 flop vs. AA. He's gone 4 bets heads-up with KJ on a Q32 flop, he raises with one overcard (drawing dead) vs. 2 obvious big pairs, all kinds of insanity. 3-bets preflop with 75o.

UTG+2: TAG. A little too loose preflop, but he's aware of Maniac and thinks I'm a TAG that's a little over-aggressive and frequently trying to outplay him. He's not folding to me under mild aggression.

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Da action:

UTG limps, Maniac limps, TAG limps, 2 limpers, SB completes, I check Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in BB. (7 players, 7 small bets).

Flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB checks, I make a highly questionable check because there's no way this gets checked through at this particular table and I want to reserve the right to figure out how to respond to bets/raises. Depending on who's doing what, I could raise, fold, etc.

UTG checks, Maniac bets, TAG raises, folded back to me, I call, UTG calls (he has some garbage), Maniac 3s, TAG caps, I call, UTG folds. (3 players, 21 small bets).

Now at this point I'm not sure where I am at with respect to Maniac, but TAG has either QJ/JT/J9 or a set. He would have raised KJ/AJ preflop to try to isolate Maniac.

Turn is 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check, Maniac bets, TAG calls. Now I know I'm ahead of TAG's range, because he's raising a full house here. I check-raise, because I'm pretty good against Maniac's range and I wouldn't mind TAG folding in this ginormous post. This line is also about the only way that also might make TAG fold against me postflop. There is no way Maniac is folding any pair/draw ever, so that's not my intention.

...

How many decisions did I misplay?

Re: The MANIAC and the TAG
 

Bleh. Just bet the flop to the maniac and hope he raises. By check-calling you are hard pressed to define the tags hand.

Re: The MANIAC and the TAG
 

Preflop: good

Flop: I like the check. I'd checkraise. I'm pretty sure you are ahead of both players ranges here. Yucky when it gets capped. I'm not sure which hands the TAG is doing this with so I'm not sure if I'd call or not.

Turn: Makes sense to me.

Re: The MANIAC and the TAG
 

I would bet the flop and let the maniac raise thus better defining UT+2 hand.

You really need to get a seat change so as to put the maniac on your right.

Re: The MANIAC and the TAG
 

I like your thinking in this hand. The flop play is questionable, but can easily be defended. I rarely cold-call, but it might be the time to do it. I'm kind of torn between checking and betting. My default is to bet, but you made a good argument for checking.

[ QUOTE ]
I check, Maniac bets, TAG calls. Now I know I'm ahead of TAG's range, because he's raising a full house here.

[/ QUOTE ]

While this might be true most of the time (about being ahead of TAG's range), let's suppose TAG had 88. Would it actually be right for him to raise in front of the maniac and try to blow people out of the water with dead draws to flush and straights?

Garland

Re: The MANIAC and the TAG
 

I agree that you should bet the flop, let maniac raise to clear out the field of UI overs or gutshots but I think the advice to move seats and have maniac on the right is very bad. If he's a true maniac you want him on your left. You use him to protect your weak hands by betting and charging the rest of field(e.g. this hand) or you check, let him bet and then check raise the whole field with monsters. Having relative position on maniac is far superior, IMO

Re: The MANIAC and the TAG
 

Once you get to the turn you donk.

Re: The MANIAC and the TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that you should bet the flop, let maniac raise to clear out the field of UI overs or gutshots but I think the advice to move seats and have maniac on the right is very bad. If he's a true maniac you want him on your left. You use him to protect your weak hands by betting and charging the rest of field(e.g. this hand) or you check, let him bet and then check raise the whole field with monsters. Having relative position on maniac is far superior, IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think these things override the obvious benefits of having him on your right and letting him act before you almost every hand. BTW, this guy is not a true maniac.

[ QUOTE ]
Maniac limps,

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF?

Re: The MANIAC and the TAG
 

OK, he actually limps once in a while, so he's not a complete raising machine. But another hand exemplifying his craziness:

I open on button, SB 3-bets, maniac caps out of BB. We call.

Flop is Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB bets, BB raises, I 3-bet, SB caps. We all call.

BB eventually shows A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Re: The MANIAC and the TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]

let's suppose TAG had 88. Would it actually be right for him to raise in front of the maniac and try to blow people out of the water with dead draws to flush and straights?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is live limit, 2 BB cold in a 13.5 BB pot is not going to dissuade too many flush draws/straight draws. They might be drawing dead, but most people don't care and they got the overlay just in case.

By TAG raising here, he gets the extra big bets out of the draws who won't call a river bet when they miss otherwise. Also, he may get multiple bets on the river when the nut flush gets there. Finally, maniac may keep raising with K3 or whatever he could have here.