Missing bets and underplaying your hand in razz
 

My observation is that everyone bets or raises when they have a slight edge. Of course they sometimes bet to represent something when their board looks better than their hand is.

I have found that one of the most effective techniques is not to always bet when you have an edge. Often times exploiting every edge means playing your cards face up. If you underplay your hand on early streets, people will often call you down drawing dead. Plus it is easier for you to get away from the hand if you miss.

An example is limping in with a strong or fairly strong hand on 3rd. If your hand is really strong, you can sometimes limpreraise if raise, but you can also limp/call.

Often on 4th, if you check, villain bets, which is fine with a really strong hand. Also, it isn't bad to have the hand checked on 4th in a of situations, as it makes it easier to win it on 5th or get away from it if you miss.

I think people have a tendency to play razz too aggressively. I don't think aggression is as valuable in razz as in games where you can't see opponents cards or as in stud high, where it is easy to misrepresent your hand.

Re: Missing bets and underplaying your hand in razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
My observation is that everyone bets or raises when they have a slight edge. Of course they sometimes bet to represent something when their board looks better than their hand is.

I have found that one of the most effective techniques is not to always bet when you have an edge. Often times exploiting every edge means playing your cards face up. If you underplay your hand on early streets, people will often call you down drawing dead. Plus it is easier for you to get away from the hand if you miss.

An example is limping in with a strong or fairly strong hand on 3rd. If your hand is really strong, you can sometimes limpreraise if raise, but you can also limp/call.

Often on 4th, if you check, villain bets, which is fine with a really strong hand. Also, it isn't bad to have the hand checked on 4th in a of situations, as it makes it easier to win it on 5th or get away from it if you miss.

I think people have a tendency to play razz too aggressively. I don't think aggression is as valuable in razz as in games where you can't see opponents cards or as in stud high, where it is easy to misrepresent your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are examples of allowing your opponent to catch up in Sklansky on Razz, there are legitimate times that slowplaying a non-made hand, and sometimes a made hand, is the best course of action. Its a big part of my game, but I admit in the heat of battle sometimes I forget - its an easy mistake to make.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Missing bets and underplaying your hand in razz
 

Slowplaying is not a very big part of my game at all, since people tend to call down really lightly anyways, but I occasionally do it if I know I want to let villain catch up to a worse hand.

Villain in this hand was a complete monkey, but I thought he might fold 4th if I bet it.

Razz ($3/$6), Ante $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.33 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (2.33 SB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks

5th Street - (1.17 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (3.17 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (5.17 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___raises

Total pot: (9.17 BB)

Total pot $55 | Rake $2

Hero: [8d 7d 4s 3h 2c Qc 5d] (Lo: 7,5,4,3,2)

Seat 6: [2s 4d Jh Th 6s 5c 8c] (Lo: 8,6,5,4,2)

This second hand demonstrates the 'standard' 4th check-call with a very strong hand as described in Sklansky on Poker. Fairly certain it earned me the extra bet on 6th and made sure villain didn't fold 5th.

Razz ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

4th Street - (5.00 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.50 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (5.50 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls

River - (9.50 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls

Total pot: (11.50 BB)

Total pot $115 | Rake $3

Hero: [Ah 5s 2c 3h 6s 3c Qs] (Lo: 6,5,3,2,A)

Seat 8: [2s 4h As 7s Kh 8s 5c] (Lo: 7,5,4,2,A)

Re: Missing bets and underplaying your hand in razz
 

Jigsaws: Thats not what I had in mind, i am pumping 4th street on your second example all day long. I have to run so I don't have the time to explain, but look at the 6th street chapter for better examples - its better than my explanation anyway.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Missing bets and underplaying your hand in razz
 

I don't mean slow playing a monster, which is kind of hard to do in razz, since it should be obvious your cards are strong.

I mean stuff like limping in with a good hand, check/calling on 4th when you know you are ahead, and not always raising on 5th when you know your draw makes you the favorite.

In these situations, you are by no means a lock to win the hand. The advantage is if you do make a lock hand, you often get paid off, because your opponent assumes you do not have perfect cards in the hole because of the way you played the hand.

This approach also makes it harder for opponents to run over you when you really do have a marginal hand. SOP discussed some of these concepts.

It is important to appear weak when you are strong and appear strong when you are weak. In razz, people often play there hands in ways that make it obvious what they have.

Re: Missing bets and underplaying your hand in razz
 

[ QUOTE ]

It is important to appear weak when you are strong and appear strong when you are weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer to appear strong when I'm strong and appear strong when I'm weak. It makes it harder to tell which is which.

Re: Missing bets and underplaying your hand in razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It is important to appear weak when you are strong and appear strong when you are weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer to appear strong when I'm strong and appear strong when I'm weak. It makes it harder to tell which is which.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can do that too. That approach works better in NLHE. The problem is that certain plays make it obvious what your cards are. Also, when you overplay, you can get into sticky situations if the next street doesn't favor you.

Re: Missing bets and underplaying your hand in razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It is important to appear weak when you are strong and appear strong when you are weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer to appear strong when I'm strong and appear strong when I'm weak. It makes it harder to tell which is which.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds about right.

BTW please stop playing 5/10 2-7, you are way too good for that game. I'm way better than everyone else in the game, but whenever you're in the game in a hand against me I feel like you're on another planet of playing and I don't think you've ever made a single mistake against me. Then again I guess it's better that you rape me in 5/10 than it is to be violated in 10/20 and 30/60 where I don't think I've played in the same games as you.

Re: Missing bets and underplaying your hand in razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mean slow playing a monster, which is kind of hard to do in razz, since it should be obvious your cards are strong.

I mean stuff like limping in with a good hand, check/calling on 4th when you know you are ahead, and not always raising on 5th when you know your draw makes you the favorite.

In these situations, you are by no means a lock to win the hand. The advantage is if you do make a lock hand, you often get paid off, because your opponent assumes you do not have perfect cards in the hole because of the way you played the hand.

This approach also makes it harder for opponents to run over you when you really do have a marginal hand. SOP discussed some of these concepts.

It is important to appear weak when you are strong and appear strong when you are weak. In razz, people often play there hands in ways that make it obvious what they have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please give examples, because so far I don't think I like what i see - but maybe I don't get where your coming from.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Missing bets and underplaying your hand in razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't mean slow playing a monster, which is kind of hard to do in razz, since it should be obvious your cards are strong.

I mean stuff like limping in with a good hand, check/calling on 4th when you know you are ahead, and not always raising on 5th when you know your draw makes you the favorite.

In these situations, you are by no means a lock to win the hand. The advantage is if you do make a lock hand, you often get paid off, because your opponent assumes you do not have perfect cards in the hole because of the way you played the hand.

This approach also makes it harder for opponents to run over you when you really do have a marginal hand. SOP discussed some of these concepts.

It is important to appear weak when you are strong and appear strong when you are weak. In razz, people often play there hands in ways that make it obvious what they have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please give examples, because so far I don't think I like what i see - but maybe I don't get where your coming from.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you understand exactly where he's coming from and still don't like it. I don't either.

At small limits Razz online everyone sucks and will keep you honest if you play your hand straightforward. At middleish limits nobody ever believes anyone and keeps them honest. There's just no point in calling/checking with your 2345K on 5th street against a J97 board to make it look like you have a 3card hand. If they're bad enough to bet J97 then they're bad enough to call a raise and often go to showdown unimproved because LOL HE MIGHT BE BLUFFING. The only deception I use early in a hand is once in a while checking 4th when I know someone else has to bet, and limping in from EP on 3rd with my very best hands. Limping on 3rd in that situation isn't really deceptive, simply because I always limp in EP in a full Razz game no matter what I have.