2/5 deepstack - KQs - Weighing NL concepts
 

Deepstack 2/5 NL @ Wynn

Reads

Game has gotten down to 5 handed from people leaving, he has adjusted his game to this.

Seems tricky and knows what hes doing..

Literally the hand before I raised QQ and he called my PF raise with 23o in the SB HU.
I checked behind a flop of 337, got min c/r on turn, then called a 2/3 pot bet on the river.
So his range PF is likely any two if hes in position...

Ive been very very active recently preflop, and had bluffed him in a small pot a few hands before the QQ hand. I dont think ive ever called a raise at the table, folding to a lot of agression. Seem to be playing scared.

Action

I have KQ of spades UTG with a stack of ~750
He is on the button and has me covered

I raise 20$
He calls

Flop Qh 8s 7d (45$)

I bet 30$, he raises to 75$...

What's my plan and why?
If I re-raise, I can't call a shove right?

NL concept question

Now my instinct was to "re-raise to find out where I stand"
...

But I started thinking, isn't this the same if I do that with any 2 cards? Because my hand is never showing down, unless I get RE-RE-raised and called.. And then I have invested a huge percentage of my stack and dont like my hand..

Then I started thinking... If I just call.. Because of my weak-tightish postflop play up to this point, once I call, ive revealed a ton of information about my hand..
He'll also be able to bluff scare cards that straighten out the board a lot... Really raping me with his position.. He is the type to do so too.
Also I think im ahead a LOT on the flop, and the pots gotten a decent size..

I can't fold , because im ahead just too often and if I fold a hand this good, he'll certaintly exploit me by raising like any 2 in position with air..

If we just call.. How do we proceed on future streets/betting on different cards?
Id love to hear a solid argument on this...

Re: 2/5 deepstack - KQs - Weighing NL concepts
 

first of all, it's a good spot (and board) to check the flop. as played, call and re-eval. i would typically check-call down. 3-betting the flop isn't a good idea unless he's pretty bad.

Re: 2/5 deepstack - KQs - Weighing NL concepts
 

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first of all, it's a good spot (and board) to check the flop. as played, call and re-eval. i would typically check-call down. 3-betting the flop isn't a good idea unless he's pretty bad.

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Check the flop planning to call down? or check planning to raise and fold to reraise?

What cards would make you fold if you were check/calling down and why? If the board comes rag then rag.. What kind of bet sizes are you calling? any/all?

Re: 2/5 deepstack - KQs - Weighing NL concepts
 

Wait, how are you in Vegas all of a sudden?

Re: 2/5 deepstack - KQs - Weighing NL concepts
 

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first of all, it's a good spot (and board) to check the flop. as played, call and re-eval. i would typically check-call down. 3-betting the flop isn't a good idea unless he's pretty bad.

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Check the flop planning to call down? or check planning to raise and fold to reraise?

What cards would make you fold if you were check/calling down and why? If the board comes rag then rag.. What kind of bet sizes are you calling? any/all?

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checking the flop would be to exercise pot-control, def not to cr. if you get to showdown, the fact that you could show up with tpgk here will protect other times you raise pf, miss the flop, and check. esp against an aggressive opponent like you describe, a hand like this is a good one to let him do the work for you. there aren't a lot of draws to protect against, so just play a small pot. not every hand has to be played for stacks, and KQ on a Q87 flop is def not one of them.

Re: 2/5 deepstack - KQs - Weighing NL concepts
 

This hand seems similar to the scenario in Concept No. 32 of NLHE:TAP. There they suggest that folding be considered as one of your options.

By the way, if we assume your argument about raising is correct (if your opponent is somewhat reasonable it should be) -- that it's no more valuable making this raise with KQs than with 52o because you have to give up if called or raised (being crushed by the range of hands that don't fold to your reraise), then your concern about getting run over by folding too much is unfounded.

If your opponent continues to play a lot of flops with you and show too much aggression, you can put in a big reraise anytime you want. In fact by folding this hand (even though your opponent won't realize you had KQ), you'll probably increase (very slightly) your fold equity if you reraise a flop raise the next time around, even if you do it with 5s2h on a board was Kc Jc 8s.

Personally, what I find difficult about your situation -- and it's obviously a very tough spot -- is that I simply don't know how my opponent will react. If I reraise him, will he call or go all-in with T9? Will he call or go all-in with KJ? If I call the flop, what combination of his hole cards + turn cards is he betting? Your opponent seems a bit reckless but it's not clear that he's going to just throw his money away after the flop.

The check/call flop line actually seems pretty intriguing. We still create some tough spots for ourselves along the way, but at least the pot is smaller. To a certain extent it seems that your flop c-bet has turned your hand into a bluff.

Re: 2/5 deepstack - KQs - Weighing NL concepts
 

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first of all, it's a good spot (and board) to check the flop.

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I very much disagree. This seems like very results oriented thinking. This is a good board to c-bet no matter what your holding is, as well as being a good board to get value of a hand like middle pair or QJ. Had villain called down 3 barrels with QJ, no one would ever say, "ahh, should've checked the flop".

3-betting the flop would be atrocious against all but the stupidest of players. You don't want to turn your hand into a bluff like that. You obviously can't fold at this point, so there's only one option left.

BTW, I put villain on a bluff or straight draw, considering his play in the 32o hand. Players who slowplay and min-CR don't play good hands fast on dry boards.

Re: 2/5 deepstack - KQs - Weighing NL concepts
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
first of all, it's a good spot (and board) to check the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I very much disagree. This seems like very results oriented thinking. This is a good board to c-bet no matter what your holding is, as well as being a good board to get value of a hand like middle pair or QJ. Had villain called down 3 barrels with QJ, no one would ever say, "ahh, should've checked the flop".

3-betting the flop would be atrocious against all but the stupidest of players. You don't want to turn your hand into a bluff like that. You obviously can't fold at this point, so there's only one option left.

BTW, I put villain on a bluff or straight draw, considering his play in the 32o hand. Players who slowplay and min-CR don't play good hands fast on dry boards.

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This is like exactly what I was thinking... I put him on a straight draw.. But then why do you want to call if he very likely has a straight draw? Isnt re-raising clearly the best play then considering I have like NEVER been calling flops without a strong hand, so he probabily wont bluff-bet again without a scare card and take a free card?

I also hate folding... I thought of the NLTAP concept but I just can't see it being correct to fold a hand as strong as KQ just cause they put in a small raise on a slightly drawy flop in position.

If I fold a hand this strong, he can just raise like 40% of flops in his position and be done with the hand if you get called... Making a serious serious profit.