I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

This is a concept I've been thinking about a ton recently and reading this thread I saw these two posts which confirm my suspicions that I am not alone.

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I call but would be in the mildly to moderately surprised camp if I was good.

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-Adanthar

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I...

1) Don't see how you can fold
2) Don't see how he's showing you a hand you're beating

Somehow that makes sense to me...

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-s33w33d


I know that these kinds of thoughts go through my head fairly often when playing and it seems almost invariably when I think them I'll end up calling and being shown a winner. I guess it comes down to your instincts and listening to them. My problem is that I'm more apt to listen to my instincts when they say "he wouldn't do this with a hand that beats you, call" than when they say "he wouldn't do this with a hand you beat, fold", and the real trouble happens when my brain says both of these things at once.

So I guess my question is how do we combat this problem? Is there some way to focus in on your instincts and make sure you are listening to them for the right reasons? I know that perfect poker isn't possible and that your instincts can't be right all the time, but how do we balance our instincts with our brain and not spew? These probably aren't the right questions to ask but I'm sure this is a concept that plagues all poker players at one time or another so let's see where this discussion goes...

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

I just call and smoke a bowl if I'm beat

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

I love when hands like that fold, as I am getting ready to make a crying call I life my two cards inbetween my right index finger and middle finger while using my left hand to throw in the chips attempting to instafold when they table thier hand. Then I move on and laugh at how bad they are regardless of them winning the hand

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

Did you type that out in spanish and use an online translator shaun?

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

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Did you type that out in spanish and use an online translator shaun?

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hahahah

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

The best is once in a blue moon when you're actually ahead and they're just uber-donk.

But then you wonder who's more retarded you or them, maybe they were pulling the sickest bluff ever but we were so retarded we still called but happened to win.

It's mind-boggling.

EDIT: There was a time I did something like this as a bluff. It wasn't actually as a bluff, it was more of a "[censored] THIS [censored] I GIVE UP" and I shoved on the river and dude folded getting some ridiculous price.

He was probably having one of those "I know I have to beat" moments and actually managed to fold, boy was he wrong LOL

Guess my point is, that's why we always call, because SOMETIMES we win [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Plus, it's always good to feel "right" even if you lose, "I knew I was beat!"

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

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Plus, it's always good to feel "right" even if you lose, "I knew I was beat!"

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This is exactly the problem! How do we learn to trust ourself enough to fold when we 'know we are beat'?

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

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Plus, it's always good to feel "right" even if you lose, "I knew I was beat!"

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This is exactly the problem! How do we learn to trust ourself enough to fold when we 'know we are beat'? [/quote

you can't make a sick read if you don't call to make sure it was right obv.]

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

At a risk of de-railing the thread: Go Rashard!

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

If you play volume online, keep a log of these situations over a week or so and then review it.

The issue is how many of the times our 'gut' is actually correct, rather than just memorably correct.

The Nguyen hand is a little different. If he's good, then we are never ahead here because a T is such a large part of our range and nothing else should play like we have and call a river raise. It's not really about instinct, unless we feel that there is something in our demeanour as we bet that has persuaded Nguyen to make a move.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

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If you play volume online, keep a log of these situations over a week or so and then review it.

The issue is how many of the times our 'gut' is actually correct, rather than just memorably correct.

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This was basically my point, I mean... Yeah I think I'm beat a ton of times and end up calling anyway, and it's always to varying degrees.

The thing is, most the time we're getting very good pot odds to call, don't need to win that often anyway, and if you actually looked at all these spots I'm not really sure how it would end up working out. It may be -EV, but I don't think it's nearly as -EV as you think, other than the OBVIOUS "I HAVE TO [censored] FOLD THIS GOD DAMNIT"

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

To the Op, this is something that i struggle a lot with. Making calls on the river(or all in calls on earlier streets) that realistically have no shot of winning is def my biggest source of spew and generally happens when I am running bad or am pissed cause the exact card I said I was gonna c/f to hits, and then for some reason I call anyways.

Ive been thinking more about this, and how to combat it cause it has become a huge problem for me, and I think the best way is just to constantly remind myself to play my A game at all times, and that my goal as a poker player is to maximize my EV at all times, even if that means an EV of 0 by folding.

In hands like the scotty nguyen hand, it is probably right to fold that river (without taking into consideration how folding there would be exploitable) Yet I knw if somehow the same situation happened to me Id proly give it a "crying call" Anyways, Im glad that I can recognize that this is a huge huge leak for myself that I have developed, but changing it can definitely be very hard to do. But I think the key is to stay disciplined and realize that I cant control the cards that come or my opponents actions, all I can control is my response to the cards and my opponents

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

heh took me a while to find this, not even sure if this is allowed to post this link from hsnl, but this is basically what i was alluding to.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

I actually think we could figure out the math on this. Make a note of every time we have that feeling, or for me "the voice" telling me to fold, what are our results? If we flag those hand histories I bet over a month or so we get at least an idea of how often we call in those crappy spots and are right.

I feel like we would see a number around 10% us being correct with average pot odds of 3.5-1. Seeing this in plain numbers would help me fold thats for sure.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

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I love when hands like that fold, as I am getting ready to make a crying call I life my two cards inbetween my right index finger and middle finger while using my left hand to throw in the chips attempting to instafold when they table thier hand. Then I move on and laugh at how bad they are regardless of them winning the hand

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What the hell is this?

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

Jordan,
I agree. There are a lot of spots where I see people on the forum advocate going broke based on hand strength. Often times what needs to be considered is that there are some general "rules" people will make i.e. don't fold sets, don't fold KK pf etc... so they will never make these laydowns even though there certainly are spots were it is correct. As a result you often see hands posted where good players ask about making tough folds and the response is typically LOL YOU HAVE xyz CALLLLLLLLLL. Anyways the point I'm making is although its difficult there certainly are spots you can fold very strong hands to certain opponents although typically not good ones.

Now I think Bond's hand is a bad example because we call the river not really expecting to be good very often. Its just we need to be good enough of the time. So even though Scotty has us beat a lot we might be good 1/8 times or w/e making a call good. However when we make this call we do so knowing we will have the best hand 1/8 times or w/e so most of the time calling we will be disappointed but that does not mean the call is bad.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

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I love when hands like that fold, as I am getting ready to make a crying call I life my two cards inbetween my right index finger and middle finger while using my left hand to throw in the chips attempting to instafold when they table thier hand. Then I move on and laugh at how bad they are regardless of them winning the hand

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What the hell is this?

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Deebish.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

This is an area where I think my results have gotten worse as my analysis has gotten better. When I first started playing, unless I was getting laid a ridiculous price, I basically played under the rule, if I think I'm beat, I fold. When I called in violation of that rule, I was usually shown a winner. Now, I attempt to quantify the strength of my belief I'm beat, and if it's less than the pot odds, make a crying call. It seems like I invariably get shown a winner. IMO, there's a balance to be struck between trusting your "instincts" (which I try to base on objective evidence rather than "feelings") while at the same time realizing that you're probably not right as often as you think you are and allowing this margin of error to influene your decisions to call on the river. The correct balance is somewhere between Phil Hellmuth and Daniel Negreanu.

I agree with Eagles that there seems to be an overemphasis on absolute rather than relative hand strength in many of the hands discussed on this form.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

In the thread you reference, you only have to be good 18% of the time for the call to be cEV+.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

Fold.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

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I love when hands like that fold, as I am getting ready to make a crying call I life my two cards inbetween my right index finger and middle finger while using my left hand to throw in the chips attempting to instafold when they table thier hand. Then I move on and laugh at how bad they are regardless of them winning the hand

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What the hell is this?

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Deebish.

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deeb spell check did'nt even make an attempt

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I love when hands like that fold, as I am getting ready to make a crying call I life my two cards inbetween my right index finger and middle finger while using my left hand to throw in the chips attempting to instafold when they table thier hand. Then I move on and laugh at how bad they are regardless of them winning the hand

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What the hell is this?

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Deebish.

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deeb spell check did'nt even make an attempt

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I love when hands like that fold.
As I am preparing myself to make a crying call I lift my 2 cards up between my right index finger and middle finger while using my left hand to throw in the chips. I am ready to instamuck when they table their hand. Despite them winning the hand I move on and laugh at how bad they are.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

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In the thread you reference, you only have to be good 18% of the time for the call to be cEV+.

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Right, I wasn't wanting this thread to be about that specific hand, but the general feeling of "i know i'm beat, i call" in spots where you may or may not be getting good pot odds.

I think eagles brings up a very good point. Maybe we need to learn to play the hands as poker and not follow rules. I know there are still some rules I follow that probably have carried over from my beginners days that are most definitely hindering my play.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

What I mean when I say this is we are obviously a big dog to have the best hand but we are getting a good enough price. In the Scotty hand for example we're obviously beat like 75% of the time at least so of course we expect to be shown a better hand, but we aregetting the price to call. If I thought we were <18% to win I would say fold. In retrospect that hand may have been a fold though...

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

You should ask the limit players, that's the kind of question they have to answer all day

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

this thread shouldnt have died so fast.

While I thought the hand with bond v.s. scotty was a fold on the end, tons of players better than me all said they would have called. I couldnt see how scotty could minraise there giving such good odds on a bluff or extremely thin value bet. That night I saw a similar hand from this years wsop where scotty (with K high) check raises Kirk whatever his name is on an A hi board, Kirk bet 5k on the end with AT (1 pair) and scotty check raised to 25k... this is one of those spots where you would typically think there is no way that my one pair is good but the difference was the size of the checkraise and it looked a bit bluffier than the hand v.s. bond and is very different in that regard.

One of my major leaks is that I can be a huge station, sometimes I just NEED to see it. And when youre a huge station sometimes you make some sick calls and get rewarded, but most of the time you look like an idiot and regret it. Its those rare times that we are right and obv looked into their soul that keep us coming back for more, even when we 'know' we're beat theres always that tiny chance.

Anyway, I really just wanted to keep this thread going and see some more discussion. /ramble

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

folding IS underrated

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

Good topic Jordan, and i really like Eagles reply. Also thank god for Deebspellcheck because that paragraph was like a sodomization of the English language.

I've been wondering about this too, especially in regards to live poker where i'm less familiar with players patterns. I'm beginiing to wonder if there are some spots where we should begin weighting a players range rediculously to one end (often being, he has the nutz) until proven otherwise.

The gross part about the Scotty hand is i've seen him do some wild moves on camera, but i wonder how many of those are the result of a camera + alcahol. What i'm really left wondering about in that hand is whether i should ever be calling the turn in live tournaments.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

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Guess my point is, that's why we always call, because SOMETIMES we win [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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i think this is true to an extent. Situations that you win a hand by making a tough call seem to stick with you and because you have made a good call before you might be right again in a similar situation.

Re: I know I\'m beat... I call?!?
 

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Maybe we need to learn to play the hands as poker and not follow rules. [ QUOTE ]

Following some general guideline is pretty hard, especially in tournament poker.