Razz: facing a strange raise on 5th street
 

Interesting hand here; the opponent's raise on 5th street seemed unconventional... I think I played it the only way I could, but found it very strange for an opponent to be raising a Q-7-4 board into an 8-2-A board -- after all, if I have a made 8, I'm probably a huge favorite, but if I'm drawing to an 8, I'm probably at worst a slight underdog. Thoughts?

Razz ($2/$4), Ante $0.40, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (3.45 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.73 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (6.73 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (8.73 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

What do I do on the river?

- Bet/call reraise
- Bet/fold to reraise
- Check/call
- Check/fold
- Check/raise(?)

Re: Razz: facing a strange raise on 5th street
 

reads on the opponent?

Baring the fact that he could be an idiot it smells like (A2)7 and he thinks he is an equity favorite to win on 5th street. Problem is on 6th he IS an equity favorite to win. Luckily you still have 1/4 pot equity and the pot is large enough to call.

fold the river, your beat unless he is retarded - and even then you might be beat.

Re: Razz: facing a strange raise on 5th street
 

[ QUOTE ]
reads on the opponent?

[/ QUOTE ]

Never played against him before this session.

In the 25 previous hands in this session, his VPIP was 28% (folded at his earliest opportunity 18 times).

He had only shown any aggression 5 times in 25 hands, completing twice (with an Ace and with a 6), twice opening a betting round with the best board, and once betting a made 7-5 on 7th street.

Up until this hand, he had never reraised an already-opened pot.

Given this history, I agree, it seems very likely that he has a draw to a very smooth 7...

Re: Razz: facing a strange raise on 5th street
 

call him down, because it's worth the small fraction of a bet you might or might not lose in equity to find out what he did this with.

also, there's a decent chance he's just a fish thinking "oh, he probably paired" on fifth and doesn't have much at all.

Re: Razz: facing a strange raise on 5th street
 

When an opponent plays oddly, his play on the bigger street is more likely to reflect the strength of his hand. I think you have to give him credit for the draw on 5th. 6th you're getting odds to call. 7th, this is one of the spots where I think to myself 'I really should be folding this' as I click on the call button.

Re: Razz: facing a strange raise on 5th street
 

Are we ignoring the possibility the raise on 5th was a misclick and he intended to call with his draw to a 7 and then bet out on 6th when he made his 7, on the assumption that when you didn't reraise 5th that you had paired up and the 6 gave you a made 8 with either a draw to a 7 or 6.

Re: Razz: facing a strange raise on 5th street
 

As it turned out, we both checked the river and my 8-6 beat the opponent's 9-7. At showdown, his three hole cards were J-9-5, indicating that his starting hand was at best (9-5)-7.

I've been trying to come up with some sort of rational reason for the opponent's play, and it all comes down to 5th street.

I think it's clear that he bet 6th representing a made 7, but lost his nerve on 7th street.

The calls on 3rd and 4th are very loose, but if he started (9-5)-7, perhaps not too terrible if he suspects I'm trying a steal on 3rd street.

The raise on 5th perhaps makes most sense as a misclick. I guess I'll never know, and I'll also never be sure what I would have done on 7th street if he had bet out.

Re: Razz: facing a strange raise on 5th street
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have done on 7th street if he had bet out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should fold if he bets 7th. good for him, he bluffed you out of a pot if he bets. In the long run that will cost him a lot, always look on the bright side!

Luckily most of our opponents cant bluff-fire the final barrel.

Re: Razz: facing a strange raise on 5th street
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would have done on 7th street if he had bet out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should fold if he bets 7th. good for him, he bluffed you out of a pot if he bets. In the long run that will cost him a lot, always look on the bright side!

[/ QUOTE ]

TT, this is a mistake. who cares what it costs him in the long run, we're talking about a)this pot and b)this session. and in this (big) pot, this guy did something so weird that we know he's got a very high chance to absolutely suck at razz. so we call, if for no better reason than to determine just how bad he is early in a long session. all you need to know is that you are not 'never' ahead when you call.

also, if you think about what we're showing, it makes relatively little sense for him to bet into us on seventh if he actually has the 76 he's repping.

Re: Razz: facing a strange raise on 5th street
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, if you think about what we're showing, it makes relatively little sense for him to bet into us on seventh if he actually has the 76 he's repping.

[/ QUOTE ]

The players in these games are rather agressive lately, its not that surprising anymore that he bets the river if he truly has the 76.

90% of the time its safe to assume that the villain will not fire another bluff on 7th because he fully expects you to call with a made 8.

put this all together and I can find a river fold in this situation vs a thinking player even though the pot is large because I don't think the hero is good 1 time in 10 needed for a call to show a positive expected value. As I said before if he is a retard and is prone to spewing chips/doesn't understand the value of pumping equity with a likely favorite hand on a bad board then I can call.