pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

i raise A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] from button to $21. fish calls in SB, tough tricky, but undoubtedly spewy lag, calls in BB. we have quite a bit of history, always going at it, checkraising, floating, making moves and removes and god knows what. he is up a chunk on me thanks to him running super good in flips and 70/30s. that may or may not affect the decision. effective stacks $1,155.

flop comes 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], check check and i bet $49. fish folds, lag makes it $156. this means open ender, flush draw, gutshot, overcardss or undercards, with varying frequencies. i dont know these frequencies super exactly. he checkraises a lot anyway. i tank for a while and call.

turn is 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. he thinks for a little while and bets $300. now, i know he follows up the checkraise with a turn bet a great deal of the time. as i said, dont know exactly how often. i have like $900 behind. i can PM his SN if ur a party MSNL reg.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

$400 on flop.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

im not folding anywhere in this hand though, i dont see whats very gross about it.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

the gross part is that i got stacked duuuh

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

Just had fun pokerstoving this.

FWIW (prbly not much), u are about 33% vs his range if he follows through with all his flush draws and never has air.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

3bet flop 100% against that villian.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

2,684 games 0.005 secs 536,800 games/sec

Board: 5c 5s 4c 8s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.638% 32.64% 00.00% 876 0.00 { AcAd }
Hand 1: 67.362% 67.36% 00.00% 1808 0.00 { 55-44, Ac9c, Ac8c, Ac7c, Ac6c, A5s, Ac3c, Ac2c, KcTc, Kc9c, Kc8c, Kc7c, Kd7d, Kc6c, K5s, Kc3c, Kc2c, QcJc, QcTc, Qc9c, JcTc, Jc9c, Jc8c, Tc9c, Tc8c, Tc7c, 9c8c, 9c7c, 9c6c, 8c7c, 8c6c, 75s+, 65s, 54s, 76o, 65o, 54o }

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

not sure about 3b the flop jfish, think it's usually a bit thin, he'd have to be pretty sick to think he has FE to shove a draw. Ideally he just calls with a draw, but meh I prefer just calling.

i'd call the turn too.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

3 betting the flop is thin?

lol?

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

well depends how light he continues

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

i wouldnt 3b flop

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

seems like on this board given that he overcalled pre, his range is either a draw that has pretty solid equity vs us, a bluff that we obviously crush, or a 5/boat. Doesn't that range make a flop 3bet kinda bad?

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

SN?

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

Call/Call/Call.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

3betting the flop is definitely thin 200bbs deep on this board, almost regardless of the opponent. I would just call down, folding on some rivers but not many.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

Mmm I don't have many hands with him. I call flop tho

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

Raise flop, Raise turn (shove or whatever) and be happy about both.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

put me in the 3 bet flop camp

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
i wouldnt 3b flop

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

3-betting flop this deep is pretty suicidal.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
i wouldnt 3b flop

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but don't you fold tens on a board of unders for like 1/4 pot bets?

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
3-betting flop this deep is pretty suicidal.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i mean i 3bet flops a lot more than most but this deep you're really hoping that he goes from "very crazy lag" to "one of the craziest people ever" if you plan on plaing abig pot with your money getting in good

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

I like a 3 bet on flop. If you don't do that, you pretty pretty much have to raise all in on turn, or you're play is exploitable against this guy.

I actually prefer a flop raise though because.

1. You tame this guy a bit in future against you.
2. You're probably ahead or at least near even money against a huge draw he might have.
3. You're not going to like so many turn cards.
4. He's tricky. You want to put him to decisions, not the other way around.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

couple thoughts, tough hand.

while i'm tempted to take this line to maintain control i think a flop 3 bet on this board is better under different circumstances (for instance, if we raise UTG+1 and this villain is the sole caller from the BB) where we would tend to make this play with a wider range to exert maximum pressure. in this situation however i feel that he can show up with a lot of suited junk and several 5x's (well amongst a ton of other hands) given the description so i want to keep the pot a bit smaller and encourage bluffs even if flatting his raise does narrow our hand range somewhat.

once he fires this specific turn i am quite concerned. for he will realize that on this board we are often shoving over or folding to his bet, and given stack sizes this will not allow him to call with any draws he may possess, which would be a fairly gross misjudgement on his part. so i think he's further narrowed to hands > AA and air now? without any knowledge on his barrelling tendencies i'm not really sure whether a turn fold or call/decide on river is best here.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

no i still dont understand a flop 3bet. if we think he fires $300 on the turn with his entire range, why would we say no to that and make him give up on his bluff?

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

dude just call call call and say shtt if he sucked out somewhere along the way

if he's bluffing, there are a lot of cards he thinks are "scare cards" and will go bombs away too. at least if he's somewhat spewy like you said.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
3-betting flop this deep is pretty suicidal.

[/ QUOTE ]
against a spewy lag? what a joke. i think you can go either way, depending on image, dynamics, recent history, etc. but saying it's "suicidal" is just retarded. once he bets turn big, though, i'd call and re-eval river (potentially folding to a shove).

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

If you had total air, would you consider it a good board to 3bet bluff flop? I wouldn't.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

exactly. he's not folding TT here. or even 77.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

If you are 3betting this flop you are committed to stacking off on the flop as you cannot fold to a push given the large number of draws.

That said, if this occurs you do not perform well against his range. So, I'd just call the flop and reevaluate.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

you perform fine against his range if he shoves the flop

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

I vote to 3bet flop, this is the type of player who will 4bet shove draws and look us up with worse 1 pair hands often. seems pretty easy 3bet actually

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
exactly. he's not folding TT here. or even 77.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol what

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

i think i speak for all spewy lags when i say: yes, start folding your aces on these kind of flops/turns. ty in advance.

ps not 3 betting this flop is crazy imo

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

yeah ofc i didnt fold.

anywayz i still fail to see why u would 3bet the flop. awaiting logic.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
3bet flop 100% against that villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd make it like 425 and snapcall push.

luego u seriously dont see why this is easy 4bet? there's am illion and one draws out there and u dont know which he has obv as you said... so given your history and how much you play back at each other u can get a ton of value from every overpair lik ethis and he'll probably shove his draws as well.

also one thing that is kind of sexy btw is to 3 bet flop and if he just calls, check back a blank turn. it gives him a free card some of the time but it stacks overpairs like always and he bluffs when he misses like 99%

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
we have quite a bit of history, always going at it, checkraising, floating, making moves and removes and god knows what.

[/ QUOTE ]

seems like reason enought to 3 ball the flop imo, with such dynamics chanses are pretty big that villain might push a drawing hand too far, or start getting crazy ideas with mediocre pp's.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

if we figure to make a lot of our money from bluffs, then why is flop a double-plus-insta-wtf-3bet

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

honestly how can people not agree with 3 betting the flop? did anyone read the OP? did OP read the OP? did i misread the OP? POOP

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

btw i like 3 betting a lot more with AA if we don't have the Ac so he can instashove nut flush draws