Capital Punishment
 

And for the ACers, pretend the state exists for the sake of this example [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Capital Punishment
 

No, and not because I'm an ACer.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

Yes. Of course.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

No. Not at all.

The only instance where I could ever support it would be if a certain inmate were still a real threat to the safety of other inmates or (and probably more importantly) the outside world, despite the best prison technology available. If such a person were to exist, and no prison existed that would keep others safe, then I can see executing him to be okay. I don't really see this happening, though I suppose it is possible.

Otherwise, no.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

I can think of several examples were the state killing another person is fine in my books, say if someone rapes babies.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

Yes, but I wouldn't get all up in arms if it were eliminated.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

I am pro-CP, but would gladly give it up if torture during a life sentence were permitted.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am pro-CP, but would gladly give it up if torture during a life sentence were permitted.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Distrust anyone in whom the desire to punish is powerful"

Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: Capital Punishment
 

Mild no. Risk of executing an innocent man, expense, lack of deterrent effect outweigh whatever marginal increase in societal utility we get from increasing the level of vengeance we achieve through the penal system.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

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No, and not because I'm an ACer.

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Re: Capital Punishment
 

No. Too barbaric.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

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No. Too barbaric.

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Against capital punishment but for punishing capital.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Capital Punishment
 

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No. Too barbaric.

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Against capital punishment but for punishing capital.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Let me guess... you've heard that one before?

Re: Capital Punishment
 

No, should I have? I thought it was kinda clever, but maybe it was bad.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

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Were you abused as a child?

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FYP

Re: Capital Punishment
 

Facts and Figures on the Death Penalty

In 2004, 97 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Viet Nam and the USA.

Use of the death penalty against child offenders
International human rights treaties prohibit anyone under 18 years old at the time of the crime being sentenced to death or executed. A small number of countries, however, continue to execute child offenders.
Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime – China, Congo (Democratic Republic), Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18 in law, and Iran is reportedly in the process of doing so. The USA executed more child offenders than any other country (19 between 1990 and 2003).

Execution of the innocent
Since 1973, 122 prisoners have been released in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. There were six such cases in 2004 and three up to December 2005.

The death penalty in the USA
Around 3,400 prisoners were under sentence of death as of 1 January 2006.
38 of the 50 US states provide for the death penalty in law. The death penalty is also provided under US federal military and civilian law.

The deterrence argument
Scientific studies have consistently failed to find convincing evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively than other punishments. The most recent survey of research findings on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates, conducted for the United Nations in 1988 and updated in 2002, concluded: ". . .it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment."

Re: Capital Punishment
 

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No, should I have? I thought it was kinda clever, but maybe it was bad.

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I thought it was clever... seems like a line that would be common in political discussion circles.

Oh, and I oppose the death penalty for the sake of content.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

Nah, this place is the only political "discussion" I get in, but maybe I've heard it somewhere before. Feel free to use it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Capital Punishment
 

Given that the state is demonstrably superfallible, capital punishment will inevitably murder innocents. Combine this with the fact that a quick death is too light a punishment for those who deserve capital punishment, and it's a no-brainer.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

I don't support it, but I wish it was a TV show...(or is it, "I wish it were a TV show")?

Re: Capital Punishment
 

For those who do support it what % of false positives do you accept?

Re: Capital Punishment
 

Hoo-ah!

Re: Capital Punishment
 

When New York had CP (if it doesn't still), I've been told it cost 22 million to put a criminal to death (court costs, whatever, poison).

Re: Capital Punishment
 

I support hard labor for serious criminals, doing something useful for our country like chain gangs. FOr others things like probation and community service. Retribution and rehabilitation rather than punnisment. And I think their should be dignity in the process for all people coming back to society some day.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

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For those who do support it what % of false positives do you accept?

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I'm still waiting for 18 answers of how many innocent people out of 100 you'd be happy with the government murdering in your name.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. Not at all.

The only instance where I could ever support it would be if a certain inmate were still a real threat to the safety of other inmates or (and probably more importantly) the outside world, despite the best prison technology available. If such a person were to exist, and no prison existed that would keep others safe, then I can see executing him to be okay. I don't really see this happening, though I suppose it is possible.

Otherwise, no.

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I agree with everything in the quote.

I would like to add that I believe people should not be executed because they should have to pay for their crimes while still alive. I want them to live to pay for their wrong doings. Being forced to work for cents an hour and being in a cage for the rest of their lives sounds like a good payment plan to me.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

To those against the death penalty-

How much a year per person does it cost for a person to be in jail?

Do you realize that the most vicious people are at the top of the social ladder in jail, thereby refuting the idea that life in prison is worse then the death penalty?

How can you both claim
1) life in prison is worse then death
2) you don't support the death penalty because it could lead to the death of innocent people

these two statements completely contradict each other to me. Maybe it's too late.

Borodog- Can you explain your point a little more?

Re: Capital Punishment
 

[ QUOTE ]
To those against the death penalty-

How much a year per person does it cost for a person to be in jail?

Do you realize that the most vicious people are at the top of the social ladder in jail, thereby refuting the idea that life in prison is worse then the death penalty?

How can you both claim
1) life in prison is worse then death
2) you don't support the death penalty because it could lead to the death of innocent people

these two statements completely contradict each other to me. Maybe it's too late.

Borodog- Can you explain your point a little more?

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen sources that claim life in prison is less expensive than the death penalty when the whole legal process and execution and whatever is added in. If this is not true, please correct me.

Part of the punishment involved, in my eyes, is having to live the rest of your life faced with the terrible things you've done. I can't even imagine what it would be like to spend every day being reminded of killing or raping or whatever. It's not all about making them have a "hard life" while they're behind bars.

I have to believe that life in prison is a worse punishment for someone who is guilty. If I were innocent, however, every day I live is another day to prove my innocence.

Either way, I think that any possibility of executing an innocent man is far too much of a price to pay, especially since executions have dubious deterrent properties.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

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Part of the punishment involved, in my eyes, is having to live the rest of your life faced with the terrible things you've done. I can't even imagine what it would be like to spend every day being reminded of killing or raping or whatever. It's not all about making them have a "hard life" while they're behind bars.


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This might apply to most normal people but definely applies to a small percentage of murderers and rapists. Most people that do that type of thing don't care about right and wrong.

Also about the cost issue, that is probably true since I've heard similar things, but it can be arranged so that it is much more cost effective (I'm not talking about getting rid of appeals either).

Whoever said that they should spend there time being forced to do simple tasks that benifit the country has a good point.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

ON COSTS:
Annual costs to maintain a prisoner are a lot. I recollect a figure of 30K annually but might be off.

I also recollect that people on death row stay there for a decade or more so the same applies to them for all the years they are on death row.

From what I understand there is an extensive appeals process available to people on death row so it might even be more expesive to have a dealth row prisoner for 15yrs including their appeals than it is to maintain a lifer for 40 years.

Second point:
I realize that the most vicious are at the top of the social ladder. That doesn't mean their life is not bad. I pesonally would rather be killed than spend life in prison I think that would be way better but realize most prisoners don't think so. I also realize it's a big problem that people in jail who are violent and willing to kill and who live in states with no death penalty are a nightmare to maintain. Their is no fear of a worse consequence than they already face so they can rule the jail and kill. Super max prisons are becoming more common where people like that are in isolation 24hrs a day but would imagine that it is even more expensive to maintain them but really don't know.

In any event I am in favor of bringing back chain gangs and putting those criminals to hard labor for 10hrs a day, 6 days a week. Of course they would have to be monitored by a couple sharp shooters so if they try to escape or fight someone they get shot dead. I think chain gangs and hard labor would be a deterrent much more than the current system.


RE: life being worse than the dealth penalty.
I use my own judgement and think that i would rather be put to dealt (a minute of pain) than confinement for 35years or more until i die having guards control my every movement and have huge restrictions on my freedom and choices. Hardened criminals usually don't think this way because they are amongst their own element in jail.

I think hard labor (i.e. cool hand Luke) should be the routine way to treat prisoners. Easier labor and rehab with skill development for the moderate to low level criminals (like auto shop or whatever). If the moderate people screw up send them to the hard labor camp if the screw up is serious.


I am against killing people and think it would really suck to kill innocent people and think that there have been cases of that since the death penalty wiht dna evidence and stuff.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

23

Re: Capital Punishment
 

Perhaps they don't at the time they commit the crime, but they generally seem to later (and possibly before the time of the crime):

Last time I checked this stat was in the 90s, but it is highly telling: 90% of men who commit a violent crime before the age of 25 never do so again.

One reason, probably the primary reason, is biological: males 'calm down' considerably as they age due to biological factors, and it really starts to set in right before 25 for most men.

I agree with this for people who are in prison for life, at least. Perhaps the productivity could be used to fund part of the UBI :).

Re: Capital Punishment
 

Where did you get this?

Re: Capital Punishment
 

The bold is why I advocate torture. For someone deserving of the death penalty (child molesters, rapists, cop killers, terrorists), torture is a better deterrent than life or death. Given the choice of those two, I think death is slightly more feared than life in prison.

I guess html is disabled..attempted to bold:

: ". . .it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment."

Re: Capital Punishment
 

It makes sense about the under 25 violence stat but as a counter point here is another one psychiatrists, et all use:

The best predictor of future violence is past violence.

How many chances of murder should someone get? We are not talking about the 1 or 2 barroom fights in age 21-25 when talking about violence and prison sir.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

first ask yourself what's your opinion about human rights in these countries:
- China
- Congo (Democratic Republic)
- Iran
- Nigeria
- Pakistan
- Saudi Arabia
- Yemen

then go two lines upwards.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

[ QUOTE ]
To those against the death penalty-

How much a year per person does it cost for a person to be in jail?

Do you realize that the most vicious people are at the top of the social ladder in jail, thereby refuting the idea that life in prison is worse then the death penalty?

How can you both claim
1) life in prison is worse then death
2) you don't support the death penalty because it could lead to the death of innocent people

these two statements completely contradict each other to me. Maybe it's too late.

Borodog- Can you explain your point a little more?

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I agree.

But some of us who are opposed to the death penalty are also, in general, opposed to prisons.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

[ QUOTE ]
To those against the death penalty-

How much a year per person does it cost for a person to be in jail?

Do you realize that the most vicious people are at the top of the social ladder in jail, thereby refuting the idea that life in prison is worse then the death penalty?

How can you both claim
1) life in prison is worse then death
2) you don't support the death penalty because it could lead to the death of innocent people

these two statements completely contradict each other to me. Maybe it's too late.

Borodog- Can you explain your point a little more?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good question. Basically it comes down to the fact that when a person is still alive, a mistaken conviction can be overturned.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

I am against CP.

My reasoning may seem too simple-minded to those with different world views. I think these contradictory world views may be irreconcilable.

Well, here goes:

1. Killing the perpetrator doesn't mend the damage done. So, it doesn't help solve anything that's already happended.

2. Killing the perpetrator doesn't add any appreciable safety margin to free citizens compared to life in maximum security prison. So, it doesn't really protect the public.

3. Thus, the only real reasons to kill would be revenge, cost savings, or to protect other inmates and guards.

4. Revenge is no good reason to kill, so I'll dismiss that as feeding a terrible human quality.

5. Killing may save societal costs. However, maybe a smarter prison system would be more effective in utilizing the prison workforce in a more self-sustaining way. For example, requiring inmates to work at some labor in order to receive additional benefits could have great benefits--productive work that defrays costs and a more stable, contented prison poulation. Unfortunately, many with the desire to punish will not like this option because they don't want inmates to lead a productive (even if confined) life--they went perpetual suffering or death even if no benefit to the rest of society.

6. Killing to protect other inmates or guards seems unnecessary considering more practical means of controlling prison populations. The slight risk of killing an innocent person seems to outweigh the slight risk of another inmate or prison guard.

Thus, given this train of thought, I can only come up to the conclusion that I am against CP.

Re: Capital Punishment
 

FWIW, I think killing for revenge is for more "moral" than killing to save a buck.