SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

blinds: 50/100
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t2500)
MP (t2000)
CO (t3000)
Button (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
BB (t1500)

Preflop: <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero ???

Hero has one of three possible hands:
a) A7o
b) KTs
c) 33

BB is one of three types of players
i) A simple player, who will call a 3 BB raise with a lot of decent hands but will only re-raise all-in preflop with premium hands.
ii) A bad player who doesn't seem to understand the difference between raising and calling a raise, and is thus likely to have about the same range for each. He also doesn't really notice how big a raise is before he makes his decision.
iii) A very aggressive player who will call a push with a wider range than most players, and will attempt a re-steal with an even wider range of hands.

To start, let's make it a very simplified game where Hero's only two options are to either raise 3 BB or open-push. Hero also doesn't want a difficult decision when facing a reraise.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

I'll get to this tommorrow slim gtg. nice post

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Im open pushing all of these vs all players. I think they are all unexploitable, especially given the fact 'hero doesnt want a difficult decision when facing a reraise'

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Open shoving all 3 seems easiest, they're unexploitable pushes. I suppose you might be able to make a case for a standard raise versus player 1, since he'll have you crushed when he re-pops and against player 3 because (presumably) he'll re-pop so light that you want to be able to call, but I'm not keen on trying to work out the math now, much less in game.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

These three hands have very different qualities.

Win probability versus ranges varies a lot:

v 5% callers, 33 is 36%, KTs, 31%, A7o, 25%
v 10% callers, 33=37%, KTs=37%, A7o=28%
v 30% callers 33=48% KTs=46%, A7o=46%

I'm not a fan of shoving here when you have such a comfortable stack. Most of the time you pick up the blinds, but you probably bust out in 1 in 25 times. A raise to 275 will pick up the blinds most of the time, and if you get repopped you can get away and still have a good stack left to play with. So, if Mr Aggro reraises all-in, it looks like we have the odds for a call, if the other guys repop we should fold.

However, even Mr Aggro's odds are a flip and we should not be flipping for stacks at this point in the trny, so if we want to get his blinds we have to be more aggressive and shove PF against him. If we regularly do this, he will pick up quickly, so perhaps the best option is to mix-up our play here, shove 50%, raise to 275 25% and limp 25%?

PS, noticed the changes Slim, makes it a very different proposition.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Sry missed the 3BB rule, ok 300, not 275.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Hands do not really change my decision.
Pushing seems always +EV anyway but in game :

I raise 250 against i), call against ii), push against iii) because I have a good hand.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Rex you didnt follow the rules!

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

I can't call, that's it ?

So let's standard raise against i)

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im open pushing all of these vs all players. I think they are all unexploitable, especially given the fact 'hero doesnt want a difficult decision when facing a reraise'

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah, agreed, but if were going to be nitty im gonna go with :

meh, shove or raise
raise
shove


slim: i think everyone is simply correlating a) i b) ii etc....just tell us if you meant to go through all the scenarios for each hand, im tired

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

OK, I don't care if you want to make it t275 or t250 instead of t300. My usual raise is probably to t275 but let's pretend it doesn't matter and use t300 for simplicity. I'm looking for nine different answers to a-i, a-ii, a-iii, b-i, etc.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

ai) I make a standard raise to 300 or w/e. He'll call with a fair amount of hands you're ahead of preflop and when he re-shoves you can be pretty sure you're beat.
aii) I think I just shove against this player. He's going to be calling the standard raise too much &amp; I don't really like playing a big pot OOP against him with these stacks, even if I'm usually ahead.
aiii) I push against this player as well. Even if he's calling a push wider than most players it's still +EV &amp; I'm not too thrilled about raising &amp; calling a shove when he re-steals.

bi) I standard raise for the same reasons as the A7 hand
Bii) I shove for same reasons as the KTs hand
biii) I shove for same reasons as KTs hand. I also don't think we can call a re-shove against this player if we standard raise, unless he is an absolute maniac.

ci)I standard raise for the same reasons as the other 2 hands
cii) I shove for the same reasons as the other 2 hands. I also think that completing is probably better than standard raising against this player.
ciii) I shove for the same reasons as the other 2 hands. I also think that completing is probably better than standard raising against this player.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Can't we just do this (or part of it, anyway) as a math problem? Or, am I missing some bigger picture here?

Shoving in all 9 cases is unexploitable. If there's a mathematical case to be made that it's more profitable to play it differently (as before, I think you might be able to make that case for players 1 and 3), can someone just run some postulated numbers and see what would happen?

And, yes, I'm too busy/lazy to do it right now.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can't we just do this (or part of it, anyway) as a math problem? Or, am I missing some bigger picture here?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's exactly where I'm going with this. I'm even going to make a graph. I make a lot of graphs.

[ QUOTE ]
Shoving in all 9 cases is unexploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. That was part of the point. It should be +$EV to shove all of these against any of the opponents I described, and pretty much all opponents in general.

[ QUOTE ]
If there's a mathematical case to be made that it's more profitable to play it differently (as before, I think you might be able to make that case for players 1 and 3), can someone just run some postulated numbers and see what would happen?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ding ding ding!

[ QUOTE ]
And, yes, I'm too busy/lazy to do it right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
No worries. I've actually got a really nice test case already done but it's 6-max, so I have to do it again for this one. I'll post it whenever I stop being busy/lazy.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can't we just do this (or part of it, anyway) as a math problem? Or, am I missing some bigger picture here?

Shoving in all 9 cases is unexploitable. If there's a mathematical case to be made that it's more profitable to play it differently (as before, I think you might be able to make that case for players 1 and 3), can someone just run some postulated numbers and see what would happen?

And, yes, I'm too busy/lazy to do it right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even though they are all unexploitable when considering the current hand in a vacuum, there may be good reasons for just folding:

a) You have a significant advantage against your opponents and the risk of busting combined with expected future EV gains might make the push -EV (see this post).

b) An "early" 15BB push might get noticed by your opponent(s) and cause them to call wider vs your future pushes. This is especially true if called and you have to show down a 'non-premium' hand (ie: an "image killer"). Taking a tiny (0.1% too 0.3%) unexploitable push now could end up costing you many times more on your later pushes and thus also make the the push -EV.

Both (a) and (b) can be accounted for by choosing a suitable threshold (minimum edge), but this threshold must also take into account the likely advantage (if any) you will have vs your opponents if you double up... Choosing a suitable threshold is the really hard part.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

This is beyond me, I'd rather just shove a7o then k10s, I'm pretty sure about that.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
b) An "early" 15BB push might get noticed by your opponent(s) and cause them to call wider vs your future pushes. This is especially true if called and you have to show down a 'non-premium' hand (ie: an "image killer"). Taking a tiny (0.1% too 0.3%) unexploitable push now could end up costing you many times more on your later pushes and thus also make the the push -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

For your image to 'be killed' your opponents would have to see your hand which means you won the hand (or maybe you tied). So I don't really think you're costing yourself "many times more". You move up to a comfort zone spot where you have the majority of the table covered. They will still fear your pushes, plus losing cannot knock you out.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Yeah, when you get "caught" here, you're either gone, or doubled up and far more dangerous.

Plus, to the extent any one actually pays attention to your image, none of these hands is especially ugly looking in an OOP BvB push. It's not like you're shoving KTs UTG, or 72o from the SB with 15BB.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

None of the hands mentioned in the OP would be image killers for most opponents.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b) An "early" 15BB push might get noticed by your opponent(s) and cause them to call wider vs your future pushes. This is especially true if called and you have to show down a 'non-premium' hand (ie: an "image killer"). Taking a tiny (0.1% too 0.3%) unexploitable push now could end up costing you many times more on your later pushes and thus also make the the push -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

For your image to 'be killed' your opponents would have to see your hand which means you won the hand (or maybe you tied). So I don't really think you're costing yourself "many times more". You move up to a comfort zone spot where you have the majority of the table covered. They will still fear your pushes, plus losing cannot knock you out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I did say "must also take into account the likely advantage (if any) you will have vs your opponents if you double up" and agree that after you double up you may be able to make up for the wider calling ranges with the more dominating stack.

I'm still fairly inclined to fold in alot of situations like this though for a few "image related" reasons:

1) I still think that passing up a 0.1%-0.3% edge here (even 0.5% in some cases) can keep a tighter image and let you get away with more exploitable "ATC pushes" with higher blinds (where a 5-10% wider calling range can be the difference between huge -EV and huge +EV).

2) If the donks see you push 15BB here and then a couple of hands later you get a monster and try to raise 2.5-3BB they might be less likely to pay you off.

3) It might cost me on other tables and/or in future games if a donk thinks I'm pushing too wide and then starts to spite call me more - I don't think it would occur to an average donk that these were unexploitable 15BB pushes (it's not obvious unless you look into it with SNGPT, etc) and if you start doing things that they don't do themselves I then think it sticks in their memory much more...

If I played against better players (who understood what I was doing) and/or my edge was less when we got into the &lt;10BB range then I would (have to) take more of these pushes.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

What sort of reshoving range do you give to your opponents?
What sort of calling range do you give to your opponents?

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b) An "early" 15BB push might get noticed by your opponent(s) and cause them to call wider vs your future pushes. This is especially true if called and you have to show down a 'non-premium' hand (ie: an "image killer"). Taking a tiny (0.1% too 0.3%) unexploitable push now could end up costing you many times more on your later pushes and thus also make the the push -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

For your image to 'be killed' your opponents would have to see your hand which means you won the hand (or maybe you tied). So I don't really think you're costing yourself "many times more". You move up to a comfort zone spot where you have the majority of the table covered. They will still fear your pushes, plus losing cannot knock you out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I did say "must also take into account the likely advantage (if any) you will have vs your opponents if you double up" and agree that after you double up you may be able to make up for the wider calling ranges with the more dominating stack.

I'm still fairly inclined to fold in alot of situations like this though for a few "image related" reasons:

1) I still think that passing up a 0.1%-0.3% edge here (even 0.5% in some cases) can keep a tighter image and let you get away with more exploitable "ATC pushes" with higher blinds (where a 5-10% wider calling range can be the difference between huge -EV and huge +EV).

2) If the donks see you push 15BB here and then a couple of hands later you get a monster and try to raise 2.5-3BB they might be less likely to pay you off.

3) It might cost me on other tables and/or in future games if a donk thinks I'm pushing too wide and then starts to spite call me more - I don't think it would occur to an average donk that these were unexploitable 15BB pushes (it's not obvious unless you look into it with SNGPT, etc) and if you start doing things that they don't do themselves I then think it sticks in their memory much more...

If I played against better players (who understood what I was doing) and/or my edge was less when we got into the &lt;10BB range then I would (have to) take more of these pushes.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Um, yeah

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Since nobody responded to my post I'm going to do all the heavy lifting here.
When you open the following will happen.
Better hands will call.
Worse hands will call.
Worse hands will fold.
Hands you should call if he reshoves will reshove
Hands you should fold to a reshove will reshove.

If he shove the following will happen
Worse hands will fold
Better hands will fold
Better hands will call.

Hands which will fold to an open will also fold to an openshove so we don't need to worry how to play vs. villain when he has these hands.

Hands which call an openshove will reshove over an open (assuming no trapping with AA). Against that range you should almost always be folding to a reshove unless he is calling an open shove and reshvoing incredibly wide.

Clearly in this case raise/fold&gt;openshove because you can't call his reshove profitably and when he has a better hand you will be risking significantly less chips. One criticsm of the above is that if a guy is reshoving wide he can exploit you, however if a guy is reshoving that wide raise calling is better than openshoving since you want him to reshove with worse hands hands.

The main thing I am ignoring in this whole post is how profitable you can play when people will call out of the blinds and you have position, possibly the best hand and the impetus.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Hero is SB, and won't have position if we see a flop.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Wow that whole write up was assuming we were on the Button. As is I would probably shove 33 and limp everything else.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Doesn't limping just invite a shove we can't call from player 3 most of the time?

And while I realize that 33 is going to be the hardest of these 3 to play post-flop most of the time, isn't shoving only 33 from this group pretty exploitable.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Let's start with a plot of $EV vs. BB's hand range. "Hand range" can be one of two things.

<ul type="square">[*]The value of open-pushing against a given calling range, or...[*]The value of raising 2.5 BB against a given over-pushing range and calling every time.[/list] http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2994/sbpushwo3.png

So what sort of hand ranges should be assigned to opponents?

i) calls a 3 BB raise with 25% {22+,A2+,K9s+,QTs+,KTo+} minus the top 5% {TT+,AQ+}, which he pushes; calls a 15 BB push with top 10% {55+,A8s+,ATo}

ii) any top 15% {33+,A8o+,A4s+,KTs+} is an all-in hand, either pushing over any action or calling a push; also calls the 3 BB raise with {A4o-A7o,A2s,A3s,KQo} for a total of 20%.

iii) calls a push with top 15%; pushes over a 3 BB raise with top 25% {22+,A2+,K9s+,QTs+,KTo+}

So now with all of that, what is your play with A7o, KTs, and 33? For now, assume you're subject to Irieguy's Hierarchy of Needs and must satisfy your Need to Call any re-raise all-in. Also, pretend like any postflop play is totally neutral. Later, I'll get to raise/folding, limping, and playing a flop.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't limping just invite a shove we can't call from player 3 most of the time?

And while I realize that 33 is going to be the hardest of these 3 to play post-flop most of the time, isn't shoving only 33 from this group pretty exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
What you are saying is all very true against a competent player, but the hypothetical villain isn't competent.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Notwithstanding potential better ways to play it, you can shove ATC at player 1, and almost ATC at player 3 if these are their real ranges, and all three hands in question are nice profitable (+.4%) shoves vs player 2.

Maybe I need to learn to play other than push/fold, but I get the feeling I should just quit replying until other people get the answers at the end of this thread, 'cause I'm just seeing more reasons to shove here.

I mean, if I have time to think about how to play these without shoving in game, shouldn't I just be playing more tables?

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

I haven't responded to this (excellent) thread yet because I didn't have anything very interesting to say. That's still true, obv ...

I'm happy shoving all 9, but it might be more +EV to raise instead against villains i and ii. I don't see how to assess this fully without reads on postflop play, and specifically on BvB postflop play. They don't always overpush preflop and we're OOP postflop, so I need a feel for how likely it is I can steal/win a bigger pot or lose/get robbed of a big pot postflop, compared to the value of open-pushing pre.

A simple 5-card match-up post-flop doesn't capture this info, and the 3 card match-up isn't much more helpful without knowing their propensity to float/stack off with different types of hands, plus aggression and bluffiness in BvB spots.

In general, if I'm worried about playing them OOP post-flop, I'm pushing to make life easier.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

I start by not open shoving any hands here for 15bbs.

So I'd probably raise/fold those 3 hands against player 1, and raise call against player 3, in almost all circumstances. Against player 2, I'm probably usually raise/calling all three but it depends on my image and table dynamics.

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Given the ranges assumed in Slim's last post (with the graph), raise-calling with KTs is clearly a bad option (I don't know if it's strictly -$EV since I don't feel like doing the math, but I assume it probably is), while open-shoving it is clearly +$EV. This is probably (part of) the point of this whole post.

It's also got to be exploitable to shove KTs and not shove 33 and A7o, but Pudge's point that the hypothetical villain isn't going to exploit hero often (at all?) is well taken.

I still like shoving here, 'cause I play SNGs so I don't have to think. :-)

Re: SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB
 

Wow i need to get SNGPT. I'm running well without it but clearly i still need some ICM learning. I rarely if ever shove 15BB's deep, and all the talk here is about how marginal hands like KT, 33 and A7 are great unexploitable pushes. Dayyyum, i need to get SNGPT.