Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

I'm a consistent winning, solid live NL player but I don't like NL too much - just don't have much choice, limit isn't played where I live. I like limit instead so my only reasonable choice is to play online. I have enough reading and postflop skills to beat 1/2, 2/4 and 3/6 shorthanded consistently on the site I play on. Didn't try anything higher so far.

The site I play on is very good, it has plenty of fish any time of the day.

Lately I've tried .25/.50 shorthanded on the site I play. Results were very bad. I logged a few thousands of hands of pure loss. I'd like to get advice on how to adapt my play to opposition who you can't put on a hand range - at all.

An average player will call any two cards preflop for any amount of bets. They will call any bet on the flop about 80% of the time, whether they have hit or not. They will call the turn if they have any kind of a draw or a high card that's not out there yet. They will call the river with Ace high or better most of the time. I.e.: if they hold J4o at the button and UTG raises, they will call 2 cold nearly always, and call any raise on a 89A flop (there is a 8 and an 9 and they can make a straight later).

How do you play against those guys? There is usually at least 4 to the flop, 3 to the river.

I've tried playng TAG, LAG, anything in between. I just loose and get schooled consistently. I can't wait to hit the nuts because it's SH and the blinds come around quickly enough.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

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An average player will call any two cards preflop for any amount of bets. They will call any bet on the flop about 80% of the time, whether they have hit or not. They will call the turn if they have any kind of a draw or a high card that's not out there yet. They will call the river with Ace high or better most of the time. I.e.: if they hold J4o at the button and UTG raises, they will call 2 cold nearly always, and call any raise on a 89A flop (there is a 8 and an 9 and they can make a straight later).

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I know this is going to come off as meaner than I intend it to, but if you can't beat guys like this, then I seriously question whether you can beat the other levels you mentioned. I know the rake in micro 6-max is fairly high, but the game you've described is 100% crushable with basic ABC poker.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

post stats. post hands.

you should be crushing this game and if you arent its either variance or you have serious leaks.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

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I know this is going to come off as meaner than I intend it to, but if you can't beat guys like this, then I seriously question whether you can beat the other levels you mentioned.

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I don't. The players can be quite different.

OP: quit bluffing. Start value-betting. Realize that you may also be on the bad side of variance.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

yeah value bet is the way to go. calculate odds and start ranging your opponents document bet patterns, I guarantee you they aren't as random as you say they are.

I have been cold decked and rivered so many times in 1/2 6 max where most of the games I play have 3 seeing the flop on avg, considering I raise anytime I am in the flop that is a lot of bad cold calling.

Nevertheless, I am down .5 bb/100. At the $1 limit same stats I win 4% more at showdown have won 7% more with 2 pair and 8% more with a set than I am currently winning on 1/2 and have +3bb/100 avg over the same amount of hands.

Crap happens but you have to plug away.

If you have the bankroll, which it sounds like you do, then ride it out. If it continues after 20k hands then post stats, maybe you have a leak.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

OP, you playing at OnGame? Sounds quite similar. I've just had a really bad run there and have been thinking about the adjustments necessary. Here's some random thoughts:

Steal less. If you have a hand that relies heavily on people folding to win, don't raise. Consider folding or even limping.

In a similar vein, don't bluff. C-bet the turn far less when you have nothing. If they're not going to fold, so what?

A lot of these guys tend to be quite passive. So when they raise, strongly consier hitting fold. It can be hard to believe that they could actually have a hand that beats you when you see how uncoordinated the board is, but as you've said, they're playing close to any 2, so anything's possible.

To make up for the fact that you're playing a lot more weak-tight in some spots than you would against a more rational line-up, value bet a lot more. TPWK, middle pair, these are hands you need to bet on every street, including the river.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

I am a winner at SH limit at 1/2, 2/4 and 3/6 over about 150k hands I logged on this site. It might be variance, indeed. However, I'm just not sure about it. I'm not used to value bet OOP with TPTK into a field of 5 people who always call and who you can't put on a hand range, regardless of your reading skills. (It's different when they RAISE, but when they just call, I get no information other than they don't raise (they might be calling with the nuts or a draw or a bottom pair or two pair or nothing, etc).).

Anyway, maybe it's just variance. I kinda thought that beating 2/4 EASILY means .25/.50 will be a piece of cake. It's not...

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

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I can't wait to hit the nuts because it's SH and the blinds come around quickly enough.

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Eh... what has that to do with anything?

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

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How do you play against those guys? There is usually at least 4 to the flop, 3 to the river.

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The problem is that this cannot be solved by any quick fix ... because;

either you move up where people respect your raises so that you will have only 1 opponent at the river (win ~50%) but the variance is higher so what you gain by having fewer river opponents you will loose because of variance.

or you move down but there people dont respect your raises at all so you will have as many as 5 people to the river which makes it even less likely that you have the best hand.

To make things worse, 0.25/0.5 is probably the level where the cumulative effect of those two effects highest. This is best compensated by moving between levels which allows you to play your weak hands against few opponents at high levels but strong hands against many opponents at low levels. Of course knowing when to play a hand at high or low comes only with thousands of hands of experience and that is what makes a winning expert LHE player.

hth
-X

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

Without reading anything. Yes.

After reading it. Yes, please to be saying what site this is.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

Value Bet Value Bet Value Bet...the math is in your favor at these games.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

Yes, these games are very beatable.

If people are calling with any two cards, value bet more and bluff less.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

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I kinda thought that beating 2/4 EASILY means .25/.50 will be a piece of cake. It's not...

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It is. It's just a different cake.

Tighten up preflop, a lot. At higher limits, and especially in 6max/short-handed games, you're probably raising a pretty wide range of hands to include offsuit broadway cards, suited connectors, weak/borderline aces (depending on position), etc. Those hands go into the muck from most positions on a loose/passive table, from most positions anyway. Don't feel obligated to make continuation bets every time when you whiff the flop. Do not make moves.

Every bet or raise you make in these games has to be for value, and for value only. Don't worry about your opponents wising up & not giving you action, because these kind of players don't make adjustments like that (and if they do, it's just along the lines of, "this guy always has the goods, so I'll fold my J2o to his raise. But if I have an ace, or if it's suited or connecting...").

In the most basic terms, you will win far fewer pots overall in these games than you would in tighter, more aggressive ones. But each pot you win will be much larger.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

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I kinda thought that beating 2/4 EASILY means .25/.50 will be a piece of cake. It's not...

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It is. It's just a different cake.

Tighten up preflop, a lot. At higher limits, and especially in 6max/short-handed games, you're probably raising a pretty wide range of hands to include offsuit broadway cards, suited connectors, weak/borderline aces (depending on position), etc. Those hands go into the muck from most positions on a loose/passive table, from most positions anyway. Don't feel obligated to make continuation bets every time when you whiff the flop.

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I agree with most of this, but think you can do something like open-limp JTs from the CO if the table is passive.

Re: Can very loose .25/.50 SH be beat?
 

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I am a winner at SH limit at 1/2, 2/4 and 3/6 over about 150k hands I logged on this site.

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Then why are you playing .25/.50?