25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

25/50 on FTP 5 handed, 8.8k effective

grim's been reraising me a good deal, and im handling it ok, standard short handed aggro game.

folds to my button i pot TT, grim in BB reraises over the pot to 725.
i call (?)

flop 952r grim bets 1250, i call (?)

turn 2 grim checks i check (?)

river A grim bets 2300 into 3975, i fold (?)

comments on all streets appreciated

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

I am not high stakes or anything, but if you are calling flop and think you are good why are you shutting down when the A comes? If you think he has A high when you call flop why are you not rr or betting turn?

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

Grim's never gonna be giving you an easy time on the R so going for a check-down on the T sucks imo. You need to decide whether you think you're ahead and raise the Flop or the Turn.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

Thats the way I play it... but I'd feel weird about it and probably ask for suggestions from people.

The problem is that I think grimm's range is massive after his river bet and that makes it a very difficult job of trying to figure out where your hand lines up against it. I mean he could conceivably take this line with any of the hands that he's 3betting PF...

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

bet turn?

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

looks ok to me

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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bet turn?

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I'm assuming you mean a b/f. Problem with that is without 4betting preflop and with almost 200bb stacks I think HERO has AA/KK not very often at all making his hand somewhat face-up, and easy for VILLAIN to cr-bluff the turn with overs, or anything for that matter..

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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Grim's never gonna be giving you an easy time on the R so going for a check-down on the T sucks imo. You need to decide whether you think you're ahead and raise the Flop or the Turn.

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I think this is awful advice, particularly raising the flop.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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Grim's never gonna be giving you an easy time on the R so going for a check-down on the T sucks imo. You need to decide whether you think you're ahead and raise the Flop or the Turn.

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That's the precise mindset that makes 3betting frequently a very profitable strategy in online poker.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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bet turn?

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fold to raise? turns my hand into a bluff imo

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

raise this river or is it suicide with your image?

AK is at the absolute top end of his range, no?

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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bet turn?

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fold to raise? turns my hand into a bluff imo

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he is probably betting any river. You have no idea what the [censored] he has, how likely is he to check-raise bluff you on the turn? Probably not very likely if you guys have been screwing around pre but otherwise playing pretty well post. Unless you are saying that you are checking the turn and calling any river bet on any card, I think you need to bet. I frequently wrestle with this, there was a thread a while back where duck said something to the effect of you check and call any river in situations like this. I try to avoid having to make really difficult decisions so I normally bet the turn, but I can see why better players with better reads would check it.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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Grim's never gonna be giving you an easy time on the R so going for a check-down on the T sucks imo. You need to decide whether you think you're ahead and raise the Flop or the Turn.

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That's the precise mindset that makes 3betting frequently a very profitable strategy in online poker.

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haha this is exactly what we were talking about the other day...

as far as the hand goes i like the turn check because betting almost entirely serves to protect your hand and doesn't do a great job of getting money from worse hands (in fact checking and betting / calling river does this better) and i think the spot it can put us in and our ability to make up some lost equity on the river outweighs the benefit of protecting against what is something like a 5 outer on average or a better hand. I guess alot of this depends on what grim check calls on the turn though... if he can do it with like 33 then this makes a bet much more appealing, obviously. However another problem is that we can get outplayed on the river and this is a pretty bad river for exactly that. It's a tough river decision... one that's really dependent on his river tendencies. If he can only really make this bet with an ace or better I think we've got to call, but if he can v-bet TT-KK i think its very hard to. But like I said, I don't know grim well enough to really say. Even if you make the wrong decision on the river, it's not likely to be particularly -ev, because i think its such a close spot. Although that's kind of a copout.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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bet turn?

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fold to raise? turns my hand into a bluff imo

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he is probably betting any river. You have no idea what the [censored] he has, how likely is he to check-raise bluff you on the turn? Probably not very likely if you guys have been screwing around pre but otherwise playing pretty well post. Unless you are saying that you are checking the turn and calling any river bet on any card, I think you need to bet. I frequently wrestle with this, there was a thread a while back where duck said something to the effect of you check and call any river in situations like this. I try to avoid having to make really difficult decisions so I normally bet the turn, but I can see why better players with better reads would check it.

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Even without that great of reads, wouldn't it be better to save your turn bet and call a lot of rivers. If you're behind you lost roughly the same amount of money, but by checking the turn and calling the river you catch a few bluffs yourself. I feel like betting the turn just pushes grim towards the upper end of his range.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr(Dealing w/Aggro\'s)
 

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25/50 on FTP 5 handed, 8.8k effective

grim's been reraising me a good deal, and im handling it ok, standard short handed aggro game.



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In HSNL,aggression is THE edge making the difference,between good players and GREAT players.As I dont play online I will offer some advice on this hand and the villian of moment Grimstarr:

1.Your above comment leads me to believe that his aggressive play,IS in fact giving you a difficult time.
2.Having a legit hand OTB with pocket tens,and raising could just appear to be a button raise to an aggressive foe like Grim,that he could re-raise with anything including a pocket pair ,Axs,suited conn's,one-gappers,AIR as well,etc. to see where your at,to CONTINUE to apply this pressure as you stated above.
3.Once you "only smooth" call his raise,and decide to see this particular flop,ANY aggressive player is likely to C_Bet repping a big hand whether he has one or not (for ex.AK,,KQ,type hands).We at this point are crushed by only JJ+,77,22,55 .His drawing hands can only be 34s,67s but not likely due to his PF re-raise,though from what I hear Grim can and will raise with any two.
4.Once he took the lead on the flop,I think you have to make a decision AT THAT POINT,by either re-raising or giving up before the pot too gets expensive with only 10's.This is very read dependent,that I for one cant help you here.
5.Just calling his lead though,puts you in a pretty tough spot though,as you have invested more $$$,without really gaining any info,and still knowing his aggression will continue to pressure you on the next two streets if we go unimproved.
6.When the 2 pairs the board on the turn,you prob.can rule out 22,but again so can he an, and thats about it.It is obvious at this point you would like to check it down if Grimstarr so desired?
Unfortunatly THAT is the problem ....GRIMSTARR nor any other great NLHS player is going oblige that easy!
7.The A on the river lead once again,obv.did not worry villain,any more than if you had AA's already and as played is now more unlikely a holding for you,and at this point and you certainly wouldnt still be in this spot with Ax(I hope not)nor would any drawing hands be completed from his point of view.

His continued betting after the river leads me to beleive you are either crushed(way back to the flop scenerio)or a stone cold bluff,well within Grimstars image.

It once again gets back to your PF and FLOP desision to stay with your hand by just calling,hoping for a checked down/cheap showdown.

This is where an aggressive foe is brutal to deal in deep stacked NL ,in or out posistion,and as a live player like myself,is where my READS-Gut come into play(i dont fair too well online),and I try making some decisions EARLY on how I intend to play that particular hand against tough foe's.Re-raising P/F or the FLOP will get some more needed information,slow him down,make him fold,that will not only save money in this spot,but let villian know you wont be pushed around going foward IMHO.
I have heard Grimstarr is not only a very skilled successful HS player,but when I play these types LIVE,I will take a stand at some point,fighting fire with fire.It can be very tough and cost some $$$$ sometimes,but that is my solution than just folding,folding,and more folding and being faced with tougher and more expensive decsions on future streets.In 75%+ of hands I am involved I either want the lead,to trap bluff,draw,whatever to put my opponents on their heals,and put pressure on THEM constantly

As played though,I would have picked a better spot,hand,or board(too dry) to take a stand with regard to defending an aggressive opponent in the future on medium strength/NON-nut/bluff type hands

Good Luck
~stephen

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr(Dealing w/Aggro\'s)
 

I just CRed allin on a similar board yesterday with KQ or some garbage. If im capable of making that play grim is very capable. I dont put him on an overpair that often as he wouldnt check turn and fire river so often with a KK QQ type hand, hes generally just blast the turn. This really isnt a bad card to call on getting some pot odds. So easy to rep the A, he almost has to. I think I call with the odds

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr(Dealing w/Aggro\'s)
 

I call this like 80% of the time

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

callcalcall

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

Pretty good line sub, I dont think grimm bluffs this river very often. Giving a free card on the turn isnt the greatest, but I think its better than betting against grimm.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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bet turn?

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fold to raise? turns my hand into a bluff imo

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Bet turn, call raise. I think he calls with a 9 here more often than he has an overpair, and its a really good spot for him to bluff since you could be floating flop a lot in order to counter his preflop re-popping.

As played I think you can fold river. The good odds are what's scaring me, I think I would be more inclined to call a larger bet.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

Well as Grim will want to c/r all-in on the turn with his big pair after betting the flop, your better off just raising the flop then betting to a check on the turn. At least that way, you dont let him catch up with his overs. If hes truly been pushing you around a lot, you have no choice here but to stick it all in with 100 bb's.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

how about betting turn 2000$ and calling a push around 25% of the time randomly?

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

as played shouldnt u be callin river a large % of the time???
no matter what comes off.... that looks like a good card for grimm to bet with any two.. especially with the turn check...

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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Pretty good line sub, I dont think grimm bluffs this river very often. Giving a free card on the turn isnt the greatest, but I think its better than betting against grimm.

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Would you bet the turn to induce a bluff or is it a value bet? I've never been one to really bet here with TT, but since so many others are considering it I'm curious.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

If you bet the turn after calling flop, will Grimstarr always stack a donk you here with an overpair?

Can he do this with AK or whatever ?

... Seeing that you peel with TT and look for a safe turn, does a bet not become ok in this spot seeing as grim checks to you also?

Scott.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

if you bet the turn it would be for value and to protect your hand. I think grimm would CR all in here with worse though some % of the time, but that depends a lot on how often grimm thinks someone is floating him on the flop. Its really hard to comment on a hand like this absent of any feel for the flow of an aggressive shorthanded game. Sometimes betting and calling an all in here feels really good, and other times you are likely better off checking and risking the free card because you'll otherwise probably get in a lot of money bad, often--or fold the best.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

interesting hand. i think given the way you played it you should be calling river a pretty large % of time given that the ace is one of the best bluffcards in the deck. i don't even remember this hand in particular but i feel that i can show up here with 8 high just as often as AK.

depending on how much I am 3 betting I would consider 4betting TT with the button here for sure. on the turn though I think you should be betting like always. if I checkraise all in thats just a crappy spot for you but I think betting turn is necessary once you get there with an overpair

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

i don't think grim has ever bluffed half pot in his entire life. this is a bit more than half pot which is the only think that makes me even wonder... but all in all, i think this would be a pretty good fold. maybe one day grim will realize that he bets pot on bluffs and value bets like half pot with monsters, but until then he will continue losing value on monsters and/or be readable.

the awesome thing about checking the turn is you're in position and you get to see what he does on the river! i also don't mind betting the turn but to be honest, versus someone like grim, if i bet the turn it is probably with the intention of calling a check/raise. and that, yellowsub, does NOT turn your hand into a bluff. and since grim's range isn't only broadways and big pairs, but he can in fact have some low suited connector type stuff, you might actually get some value for your hand, even. but the default line here is to check.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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Even without that great of reads, wouldn't it be better to save your turn bet and call a lot of rivers. If you're behind you lost roughly the same amount of money, but by checking the turn and calling the river you catch a few bluffs yourself. I feel like betting the turn just pushes grim towards the upper end of his range.

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I really like this one

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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i don't think grim has ever bluffed half pot in his entire life. this is a bit more than half pot which is the only think that makes me even wonder... but all in all, i think this would be a pretty good fold. maybe one day grim will realize that he bets pot on bluffs and value bets like half pot with monsters, but until then he will continue losing value on monsters and/or be readable.



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I guess Grimstarr has some "online betting tells" that result in this call/situation ,being a completely different read that other onliners have picked up on?

~sf

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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interesting hand. i think given the way you played it you should be calling river a pretty large % of time given that the ace is one of the best bluffcards in the deck. i don't even remember this hand in particular but i feel that i can show up here with 8 high just as often as AK.

depending on how much I am 3 betting I would consider 4betting TT with the button here for sure. on the turn though I think you should be betting like always. if I checkraise all in thats just a crappy spot for you but I think betting turn is necessary once you get there with an overpair

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I think ur spot on and everyone else is way off, this is very very very close to a call people......

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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the awesome thing about checking the turn is you're in position and you get to see what he does on the river! i also don't mind betting the turn but to be honest, versus someone like grim, if i bet the turn it is probably with the intention of calling a check/raise. and that, yellowsub, does NOT turn your hand into a bluff. and since grim's range isn't only broadways and big pairs, but he can in fact have some low suited connector type stuff, you might actually get some value for your hand, even. but the default line here is to check.

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Agree with this.

Just to add to the 'pro turn bettors'....having TT here is obviously diiferent from having a bigger overpair in respect to how many overcards are out that can beat you. Sure if he does have 2 overs he has 6 outs, but the problem is that their are 16 (14 if he has 2 of them) overcards and you don't know which ones to be afraid of. The risk of folding to a river bluff would be terrible and yet very prevelant in this hand. because of this, I might be more inclined to be betting the turn.

Ofcourse as Strasser said, the flow of the game and both images/levels/mindsets that both you are in will ultimately decide if i am checking or betting the turn. As well, as Duck said, depending upon above statement will decide if i am b/f'ing or b/c'ing the turn if i do bet.

Re: 25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr
 

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i don't think grim has ever bluffed half pot in his entire life. this is a bit more than half pot which is the only think that makes me even wonder... but all in all, i think this would be a pretty good fold. maybe one day grim will realize that he bets pot on bluffs and value bets like half pot with monsters, but until then he will continue losing value on monsters and/or be readable.

the awesome thing about checking the turn is you're in position and you get to see what he does on the river! i also don't mind betting the turn but to be honest, versus someone like grim, if i bet the turn it is probably with the intention of calling a check/raise. and that, yellowsub, does NOT turn your hand into a bluff. and since grim's range isn't only broadways and big pairs, but he can in fact have some low suited connector type stuff, you might actually get some value for your hand, even. but the default line here is to check.

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sickownage