live 6/12, 87s from BB
 

Maybe one folder, so 8 players, I have 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in BB. I think about raising it up but chicken out -- the table is not super loose, so the 8-handed play is exceptional, which likely reduces any equity edge I might have. OTOH, maybe this means lots of limping with broadways and my hand is stronger than I think?

Flop [7 SB]: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Three checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, HJ raises, one fold, BN, SB call.

BN and SB are horrible and loose and will peel with just about anything, so the cold calls aren't that of great concern. MP1 is better than average, although he does do things like limp small offsuit aces from MP. Not much of a read on MP2 and HJ.

1. Raise preflop?
2. Are my pair and two backdoors enough to continue on the flop?

Re: live 6/12, 87s from BB
 

raising pf here is pointless esp given your position in the bb

no, fold the flop when it's 2 back to you

Re: live 6/12, 87s from BB
 

I would raise this in the CO or OTB, but I don't see a lot of value raising this in the BB.The only advantage I see is people will put you on a high pair or AK and if you get the right flop you could get a lot of action.

I would call the flop.You have alot of cards that improve you or give you a good draw.An 8,7,6 any heart are good for you and your getting 15-2 and possibly 17-2 on your money.Theres a lot of players who have called 2 cold already so you should get paid off if you do hit your hand.

Re: live 6/12, 87s from BB
 

I agree with the archbishop here. Let's say a 7 comes off on the turn giving you 2 pair, it also puts out a str8 and also if the 7d comes off it also puts out a flush draw as well as a str8. So I think I fold this on the flop.

Re: live 6/12, 87s from BB
 

fold flop

Re: live 6/12, 87s from BB
 

PF: You could raise for table image reasons, but I think knuckling is standard.

Flop: So let me get this straight; there are 15 bets in the pot, it's 7 handed, and there are 3 players left to act behind you (one of whom checked, one of whom is good and bet, and one of whom called), and you're being asked to call 2 bets.

I just don't see a fold here. Even if it does get 3 bet, everyone is going to call, and you probably aren't a huge dog against 5 or 6 opponents. Your read on MP1 (that he is pretty good for the game) is disconcerting. Without it, I'd certainly call. With it, I think you still have to put 2 bets out there and see how it goes. If your 6/12 game plays like mine, you're almost certainly not getting 3 bet and you're going to end up paying 2 bets to see a pot with 17 or 19 bets in it.

Re: live 6/12, 87s from BB
 

Hmmm. So best case scenario he's getting 9-1, and more likely like 8-1. I agree that this is rarely getting three bet. I might change my mind about this yet.

Re: live 6/12, 87s from BB
 

There are 15 bets right now. Lets suppose absolute worst case; we call, a fold, then MP1 3 bets, mp 2 folds, HJ caps it. Button and SB will call (they are retarded), and we'll call 2 more, as will MP1. I think thats 24 bets other than us, which means we're getting 6 to 1. Admittedly in that case it's not clear how good any of our outs are, but that is the WORST that could possibly happen. More likely we're getting 8 or 9 to one, as Samuel L Jackson says.

Re: live 6/12, 87s from BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are 15 bets right now. Lets suppose absolute worst case; we call, a fold, then MP1 3 bets, mp 2 folds, HJ caps it. Button and SB will call (they are retarded), and we'll call 2 more, as will MP1. I think thats 24 bets other than us, which means we're getting 6 to 1. Admittedly in that case it's not clear how good any of our outs are, but that is the WORST that could possibly happen. More likely we're getting 8 or 9 to one, as Samuel L Jackson says.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my main issue. If it does get threetowned I want to fold because I probably have, what, two 8 outs, 1 out for BD flush and straight draws, so that's 3 at best?

Re: live 6/12, 87s from BB
 

I agree, in that case you're in pretty rough shape. But how often are you going to get capped? How often are you even going to get 3-bet? I don't know if we really have a good way of deciding that.