A4s BDFD
 

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero...

Some numbers, no really significant notes, none more than 50 hands.
CO 29/8.3/1.0(24) {cold-called with 54s in CO}
BT 58/0(12)
BB 33/0(9)
UTG+1 39/4.1/1.5(49) {called then cold-called with K8o MP}
MP1 40/0/0.4(45)
MP3 16/4/0.0(25)

I have an overcard Ace and a BDFD getting 12.5:1. With so many in the hand the Ace is likely counterfeited, but with so many in the hand the BDFD could pay off well. Seems to me as if I have about 3 outs and I'd need 4 to call. This seems like a borderline call which is OK to lay down...but is the pot so large that I should peel?

Re: A4s BDFD
 

just fold this and wait for a better spot

Re: A4s BDFD
 

I agree I would fold this spot, like you said your ace is probably dirty, your looking to catch running spades or a running 3 and 5 The last thing you want is to catch a spade get in a raising war, and miss the river.

Fold this spot, you seem to be at a loose table, take there money a different way.

Re: A4s BDFD
 

You could do it the old fashioned way and give outs to your draws and over card, discounting them because they are craptacular. There would be lots of math involved, probably some carrying, but you would get a better feel for what to do in this situation in the future.

Or you could just fold your crappy hand.

Re: A4s BDFD
 

Well, I'd rather fold my crappy hand than have to buy and learn how to use 'stove just now. I did the rough math...though why I said that I have three outs, need four, and that it's a borderline CALL I don't know. Typed too fast, I guess.

Re: A4s BDFD
 

If there was an edge in this hand, and there probably isn't, it would be so miniscule that pushing it at the micros would be counterproductive. If all you have is a couple of back door draws and a weakly kicked overcard just fold.

Re: A4s BDFD
 

I'd fold. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: A4s BDFD
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I'd rather fold my crappy hand than have to buy and learn how to use 'stove just now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker Stove is free and very intuitive; not really much to learn at all. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Go ahead and Google it to find the download page.

Re: A4s BDFD
 

There are a few things you need to take into account, in addition to the pot odds being laid out to you &amp; the strength of your draws. First of all, there's no guaranteeing that you'll win anything at all if you runner runner your way to a winning flush--in a 7-way pot, five players checked to a moderately aggressive guy in late position, who then bet &amp; was flat called in four (so far) places. It's more likely than normal that the turn will get checked through (especially if it's a card which really helps you, like the 3 or 5 of spades or an ace), and when that happens then it becomes less likely that you'll win big if you do end up with the best hand. And even if you do improve on the turn and CO bets again, there's no guarantee that anyone else will call that bet.

So, basically, your implied odds suck, but your reverse implied odds also suck because the pot size means you'll often be forced to check/call to showdown if you turn your ace. With the size of the pot, this is at best a breakeven situation equity-wise, which means that peeling will only add variance to your game without affecting your longterm win rate either way. Or in short, just fold &amp; wait for the next hand.

Re: A4s BDFD
 

At such stakes, you don't necessarily have to push such a thin edge (Or maybe there's not much edge here?). You might end up spewing... my experience with 0.02/0.04 is that I have learnt to identify spots which the pot is not too big, and I have a very weak draw or made hand that is totally not worth to pursue. It used to be a huge leak when I try to chase in similar situations like your post. Now I'm saving a lot of BBs for later rounds to charge my opponents.