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-   -   A5s in blind battle. (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=523052)

Superfluous Man 10-15-2007 04:15 AM

Re: A5s in blind battle.
 
My default is to c/c this river if he's likely to bluff, but I do that a lot. I feel like he's bluffing whiffed a draw more than he's calling with exactly a worse 5 or 44-33 here. Meh.

shaundeeb 10-15-2007 04:51 AM

Re: A5s in blind battle.
 
[ QUOTE ]
My default is to c/c this river if he's likely to bluff, but I do that a lot. I feel like he's bluffing whiffed a draw more than he's calling with exactly a worse 5 or 44-33 here. Meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

registrar 10-15-2007 05:39 AM

Re: A5s in blind battle.
 
Ditto. Reads/image can make betting more profitable obviously.

baltostar 10-15-2007 06:09 AM

Re: A5s in blind battle.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Limping is fine, but on pairing a 5 (bottom 1/3 of rank range) you need to bet that flop. Free card here is a clear mistake. Plus you're pushing the boundary of reasonable expectation for this hand -- asking for trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the "boundary of reasonable expectation for this hand" ???

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say a reasonable expectation for being folded to A5s in the SB is not a whole lot more than the blinds. So, perhaps the boundary is twice the blinds.

Raising it up 3x bb is your best shot to achieve your expectation. But it opens you up to exploitation if skilled villain knows your blind steal range and is aggressive in triple 3-betting you. If you don't want to play post-flop for 18bb pot, he can fold you perhaps 80% of the time, making his 3-bet move EV+.

Completing is not nearly as exploitable because playing for 6bb pot involves 1/3 risk of playing for 18 bb pot.

Many good players will argue for completing because they hold an advantage over opponent in post-flop play. And predictably that's the direction so many of these threads go: discussions of advanced post-flop play which pile-up assumptions about opponent play in an increasingly fragile manner, attempting to use skill to artifically increase opportunity beyond reason.

I don't think that superiority of post-flop play alone is a good enough reason to complete.

Probably is a good enough reason in a cash game, but in a tournament you can easily find yourself escalated into an outlay way out of proportion to the relative opportunity of A5s OOP single opponent.

So you complete mainly to minimize your exploitability in the metagame. Therefore you should try to take this down on the flop whether you hit or not.

Of course if villain figures this out then you are exploitable on flop. But that's a 2nd-order metagame that villain is much less likely to put you on.

Kala1928 10-15-2007 07:53 AM

Re: A5s in blind battle.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Limping is fine, but on pairing a 5 (bottom 1/3 of rank range) you need to bet that flop. Free card here is a clear mistake. Plus you're pushing the boundary of reasonable expectation for this hand -- asking for trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the "boundary of reasonable expectation for this hand" ???

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say a reasonable expectation for being folded to A5s in the SB is not a whole lot more than the blinds. So, perhaps the boundary is twice the blinds.

Raising it up 3x bb is your best shot to achieve your expectation. But it opens you up to exploitation if skilled villain knows your blind steal range and is aggressive in triple 3-betting you. If you don't want to play post-flop for 18bb pot, he can fold you perhaps 80% of the time, making his 3-bet move EV+.

Completing is not nearly as exploitable because playing for 6bb pot involves 1/3 risk of playing for 18 bb pot.

Many good players will argue for completing because they hold an advantage over opponent in post-flop play. And predictably that's the direction so many of these threads go: discussions of advanced post-flop play which pile-up assumptions about opponent play in an increasingly fragile manner, attempting to use skill to artifically increase opportunity beyond reason.

I don't think that superiority of post-flop play alone is a good enough reason to complete.

Probably is a good enough reason in a cash game, but in a tournament you can easily find yourself escalated into an outlay way out of proportion to the relative opportunity of A5s OOP single opponent.

So you complete mainly to minimize your exploitability in the metagame. Therefore you should try to take this down on the flop whether you hit or not.

Of course if villain figures this out then you are exploitable on flop. But that's a 2nd-order metagame that villain is much less likely to put you on.

[/ QUOTE ]

read and memorize

oh and lol at triple 3-bet

baltostar 10-15-2007 08:48 AM

Re: A5s in blind battle.
 
[ QUOTE ]
read and memorize

oh and lol at triple 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Instead of another lame ass one liner, why don't you actually do some thinking ?

gobboboy 10-15-2007 10:18 AM

Re: A5s in blind battle.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
read and memorize

oh and lol at triple 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Instead of another lame ass one liner, why don't you actually do some thinking ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you're retarded and we're making fun of you.

Ansky 10-15-2007 10:34 AM

Re: A5s in blind battle.
 
baltosar you have the most backward, unintuitive way of thinking of EV as I have ever seen. You should never consider the EV of a hand by the max you "should" be making with it, it is all about making the most you can possibly make given the situation.

registrar 10-15-2007 10:37 AM

Re: A5s in blind battle.
 
Can someone explain Baltostar's theory to me or link me to a thread where it is outlined?

PrayingMantis 10-15-2007 11:30 AM

Re: A5s in blind battle.
 
I believe that with the gobbo image betting 5-6K is superior to c/c. But c/c can be better sometimes if you have history vs. BB and know his tendencies.

As to other parts of the hand, if villain is weak tight I'd raise a lot of hands pf and also this (not always tho). Otherwise limping is fine. Flop I'd check or bet, checking is fine IMO.


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