a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

Live 10/20 game that I did not witness; I am not the hero in this hand, a friend of mine sent it to me via email. Because we are friends its better if I let you guys have a crack at commenting on the hero's play. I don't want to get involved. Hero is assumed to be a good TAG, and a regular 2+2'er who visits the strategy forums. If the people who were involved in this hand read it, please don't comment until the thread is finished.

4-5 limpers, Hero has AcQc in the SB and raises, everyone comes along.

Flop is Q53, two hearts. Hero bets, Rich raises, Bus calls two cold (he is a smart enough player, hero assumes he has hearts), a fold, and mega-donkey calls on the button. Hero decides to call and check-raise a safe turn. He thinks Rich will bet, and if not Mega-Donkey will bet every time, allowing him to check-raise the field.

He feels that if he three-bets the flop, then he's not getting raised if he sees a safe turn which lowers his expected value. He feels the only question is whether or not Rich will raise a turn donk. If so, he thinks he should have bet the turn.

(interesting side note, Bus commented in the email that was sent between us that if Bret was going 3-bet the flop then he would have likely capped. Feel free to comment on this as well).

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

Not 3-betting this flop is a significant error in this multiway pot in my opinion. Get it in while you're getting the best of it--lots of turn cards kill your action.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

i likely would put in a 3rd bet on the flop, but I think calling and betting any non- [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn is likely OK too. i think hero's equity will change dramatically on the turn card, so i don't think we are gving too much up by just calling the flop and donking the turn (although like i said i'd 3bet the flop in most cases). calling the flop and checking the turn is a disaster IMHO.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

You have to 3-bet that flop.

I'm not sure how Rich plays, but I think he has 55, 33 or a flush draw, KQ or QJ. Statisticly, he has a flush draw or worse top pair here most of the time and you need to charge the maximum, especially since the donky button will call along on the flop and may fold out on the turn.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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He feels that if he three-bets the flop, then he's not getting raised if he sees a safe turn which lowers his expected value.

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His thoughts actually were that he can't protect his hand so he feels like making people put in two big bets on the turn.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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calling the flop and checking the turn is a disaster IMHO.

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No, calling and seeing the flop check through is a disaster.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
calling the flop and checking the turn is a disaster IMHO.

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No, calling and seeing the flop check through is a disaster.

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??? I think you mean turn right?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

[ QUOTE ]
Statisticly, he has a flush draw or worse top pair here most of the time and you need to charge the maximum, especially since the donky button will call along on the flop and may fold out on the turn.


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2 people cold-called a raise on this flop. They're not folding the turn. The first cold caller is good. The second is not, but she's seeing the river. Three-betting the flop and getting one bet in from each of them on the turn will get me 1.5 bb's from each. Check-raising will net me two. On the off chance that everyone checks the turn to the button and someone folds to my c/r there, then, so be it, I only have one pair.

Thing is, if I three bet the flop after raising out of the blinds I won't be able to make anyone call more than one bet at any point in the hand. I think a turn donk would freeze up the flop raiser and he won't raise, but, like TT said, that's the best play if he will raise. But given that this turn is getting bet 100% of the time, I thought getting these suckers to put in two big bets was ok.

This isn't in any way standard, and I've never played a hand like this before. SOP for me, OOP with a good hand is to jam. But this one is unique because of the line-up, and I thought it made sense at the time. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but, for the sake of argument, assuming the turn gets bet by someone 100% of the time, I'm not sure this isn't a good play in this spot.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

ok, why TT posted this hand instead of brettbrettr?

Is this a new cool trend on 2+2 to ask your friend post your hand for you?

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok, why TT posted this hand instead of brettbrettr?

Is this a new cool trend on 2+2 to ask your friend post your hand for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I explained why in the OP. I love Brett, he is a great guy. We play together a lot, we go to lunch together, we have even traveled to AC together. I don't want to argue with him about optimal play which is something we tend to do, so to avoid personal conflicts I thought it would be best to give this route a try. A friendship is more important than being right, yet at the same time as a friend I want to see Brett's game grow and prosper.

For what it's worth, what the people in the thread have said so far is also my position. Also nobody was supposed to know it's Bret, but I forgot to edit out his name in one spot of the OP so the cats out of the bag... that was my error.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]