PLO100 - turn the nut straight, value bet backdoor flushing river?
 

Anyone bet / not bet this river?

UTG is 58/46/1.9
I'm playing pretty snug

Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $1/$1
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $668.00
CO: $42.00
Hero: $115.60
SB: $74.35
BB: $175.10

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $2</font>, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $5</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($12, 2 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $10</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($32, 2 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $20</font>, UTG calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($72, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero...

Re: PLO100 - turn the nut straight, value bet backdoor flushing river?
 

You can get away with a small bet here, like $20. You can get looked up by all sorts of poo here, most likely aces up (AT seems likely, so try to price it in) and sometimes, but very rarely, force out a split. The disadvantage is getting bluffraised occasionally but UTG really doesn't seem the type.

Re: PLO100 - turn the nut straight, value bet backdoor flushing river?
 

I am a PLO beginner, so excuse a few questions...

1) Is rr this PF standart or just a BT raise with a wide range like in Holdem?
2) if villain raises the flop, do we shove our draw, repping kings, or will he never fold Tens or treys?
Would shoving the draw be horrible, considering that we already have one of our outs in our own hand?

3) I thought the river is the easiest value shove ever (obv i play holdem^^). Are BD flushes thaaat likely, cuz in holdem its basically a cooler if u have the striaght and he backdoored you...

kk.thx, and sorry if this was n00bish.

Re: PLO100 - turn the nut straight, value bet backdoor flushing river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is rr this PF standart or just a BT raise with a wide range like in Holdem?

[/ QUOTE ] To me (and hopefully to others), AQJ4 suited is a very good hand, re-raisable ESPECIALLY on the button. AQJ has a lot of straight possibilites and top two pairs. The suitedness of the 4 with a Q and questionably the A for a non-nut straight makes this hand reasonably co-ordinated.

[ QUOTE ]
if villain raises the flop, do we shove our draw, repping kings, or will he never fold Tens or treys?
Would shoving the draw be horrible, considering that we already have one of our outs in our own hand?

[/ QUOTE ] If you CAREFULLY count your outs, I counted 13 outs (3 J's, Q's, A's and 4 9's). I also added another 1.5 outs accounting the backdoor flush draw (I think that is what it is approximately worth in Omaha). That makes 14.5 outs. The chance of hitting one of those outs on the turn or river is 53.03% or 0.89 to 1 (I hope again). So, if my calculations are correct, you are a favorite to win this hand (let's ignore two pair(s) and sets and full houses). So, as my answer to your question, you could be representing kings (at least to him), but for your own sake I would say you would be raising for value.

[ QUOTE ]
3) I thought the river is the easiest value shove ever (obv i play holdem^^). Are BD flushes thaaat likely, cuz in holdem its basically a cooler if u have the striaght and he backdoored you...

[/ QUOTE ] Backdoor flushes are MORE likely relative to hold 'em, but you're heads up and if he does have it, he will call or raise you and so be it; BUT a backdoor flush is STILL UNLIKELY and you should try sell the nuts (by betting around $20 as Wazz suggested, though he seems more towards testing what he has...).

Re: PLO100 - turn the nut straight, value bet backdoor flushing river?
 

As far as re-raising preflop, since hero is on the button, and the villian has a verrry wide raising range, and the villian only min-raised preflop, reraise here is fine.

Re: PLO100 - turn the nut straight, value bet backdoor flushing river?
 

A small bet on the river is fine here, but I would fold if I got raised a significant amount.

If you bet large, you will only get called by hands that beat you in my experience.

Re: PLO100 - turn the nut straight, value bet backdoor flushing river?
 

Bet 35 or 40 then fold to a push if he is a sane opponent. If I really I don't know what to do against a checkraise I probably wouldn't bet it, but that would be infrequent.

If he is bad, the fact that he is really deep may cause me make some riskier plays to try and build a stack and play deep with him. That doesn't affect whether I bet the river,
but you should definitely bet more on the turn, he is winning and may gamble with you. In general I bet more on every street.

Re: PLO100 - turn the nut straight, value bet backdoor flushing river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ESPECIALLY on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]
We get it, you like position. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: PLO100 - turn the nut straight, value bet backdoor flushing river?
 

As said above, I agree with a small bet here. $30 comes to mind. Considering he's been calling you down, he's probably got middle set and/or two pair, of which you beat. If he pushes, fold and take the beat but I doubt he has 2 diamonds.

Re: PLO100 - turn the nut straight, value bet backdoor flushing river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is rr this PF standart or just a BT raise with a wide range like in Holdem?

[/ QUOTE ] To me (and hopefully to others), AQJ4 suited is a very good hand, re-raisable ESPECIALLY on the button. AQJ has a lot of straight possibilites and top two pairs. The suitedness of the 4 with a Q and questionably the A for a non-nut straight makes this hand reasonably co-ordinated.

[/ QUOTE ]
Coming from tbe guy who was saying to fold AAxx single suited to a raise, I initially thought this was a "level" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]... anyway IMO the hand's pretty crappy and it's not really a standard re-raise, but it's player dependent. This guy was raising too much pre-flop so my hand figures to be better than his. Secondly, he was usually potting it up to $4 but occasionally min-raising to $2, which told me he didn't like his hand that much. Thirdly, if he'd just limped, my pot-sized raise would have been to $5 anyway, so I'm just treating his min-raise as a limp. My hand's pretty weak and I don't want to play a huge pot with it so I don't think a PSR is necessary. Fourthly, I want to isolate. By just calling, the blinds get amazingly good pot-odds to come in. Fifth, I take control of the hand and probably get checked to on the flop rather than being c-bet at. Re-raising &gt;&gt;&gt; calling for these reasons.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if villain raises the flop, do we shove our draw, repping kings, or will he never fold Tens or treys?
Would shoving the draw be horrible, considering that we already have one of our outs in our own hand?

[/ QUOTE ] If you CAREFULLY count your outs, I counted 13 outs (3 J's, Q's, A's and 4 9's). I also added another 1.5 outs accounting the backdoor flush draw (I think that is what it is approximately worth in Omaha). That makes 14.5 outs. The chance of hitting one of those outs on the turn or river is 53.03% or 0.89 to 1 (I hope again). So, if my calculations are correct, you are a favorite to win this hand (let's ignore two pair(s) and sets and full houses). So, as my answer to your question, you could be representing kings (at least to him), but for your own sake I would say you would be raising for value.

[/ QUOTE ]If he has 2-pair or a set then he has a chance to make a full house, plus he might also have backdoor flushes, so we're actually not in such good shape versus those hands. Also, no-one folds top two pair in a heads-up pot here - they put you on over-played Aces or a draw. I probably just call if he raises. Also, the fact that I don't have any pair makes my hand a whole lot worse since I'm in bad shape versus a hand like QJ99 compared to if my hand was AKQJ.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3) I thought the river is the easiest value shove ever (obv i play holdem^^). Are BD flushes thaaat likely, cuz in holdem its basically a cooler if u have the striaght and he backdoored you...

[/ QUOTE ] Backdoor flushes are MORE likely relative to hold 'em, but you're heads up and if he does have it, he will call or raise you and so be it; BUT a backdoor flush is STILL UNLIKELY and you should try sell the nuts (by betting around $20 as Wazz suggested, though he seems more towards testing what he has...).

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it's unlikely he has a flush, but also unlikely he calls a large bet if he doesn't. I actually just checked behind, which I think was a mistake and was why I posted. He had AKxx.