Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

Yet another aces hand... I don't know wtf I am doing here, so I'm not even going to post any of my own comments.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($8/$16), Ante $1,50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.31 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (9.56 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (6.78 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (14.78 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

River - (18.78 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___calls $16 (all-in)

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Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

looks good.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

Why not jam 5th street?

Nobody is likely to have a two pair and nobody is freerolling you yet.

For the low draws to do that they'd pretty much would have had to started out with a small pair and paired on 4th. The K and Q are very unlikely to have helped them even if they were live, and now they're blocked as well. And if they actually do have a two-low with two pair raising might get them to fold, which would be huge.

The flush draws do leave you in bad shape. But it's much worse for a pair of queens or worse, and if he folds you're still going to increase your equity by 10 points or so. Or proportionally you're going to increase you equity by fifty percent getting rid of seat 3 when he only has a pair.

Seat 3 could of course also has a flush draw, which is very bad. And it's not super-unlikely combination wise. If he begain with split queens he's got at least one spade 50% of the time. So *very* roughly he has the flush draw something like 15-25% of the time, which is decreased quite a lot by him just calling your bet. And the same reasoning goes for him having two pair or trips.

If you're getting rid of even a really crappy lowdraw that's going to help you too. Though not as much as getting rid of a pair of queens.

Getting heads-up of course, is the jackpot. Even if you are up against a smooth straight draw. If it's against a low without much for high you've suddenly gone from 25%-30% in a big pot to 67%. If you happen to get heads-up against a straight-flush draw you're still much better off being 1-on-1 rather than a multiway pot.

Seat 4 could have a flush draw, but then he'd have had to have started specifically with two small clubs, and probably not 4c. That's two out of A23678 clubs compared to all the other low cards and pairs he could have had. Of course, once he's raised he probably doesn't have a pair, but it doesn't exclude a ton of low hands trying to punish seat 5.

Anyway, seems like a pretty clear jamming opportunity between you and the best lowdraw. If the other two keeps playing with just pairs and bad lows they're getting stitched up for a ton.

Sometimes you're going to be taking it in the ass from a flushdraw, but that happens.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

[ QUOTE ]

Why not jam 5th street?

[/ QUOTE ]

We've got one pair. Who's to say that someone doesn't have two pair or better? The one guy is raising with something. Everyone else is calling with something. There are still plenty of ways this hand can go south. I think it's better to use some caution here.

I think this hand was well-played.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

[ QUOTE ]
We've got one pair. Who's to say that someone doesn't have two pair or better?

[/ QUOTE ]Not to be a dick about it, but did you actually read my post?

I explained that getting rid of a pair of queens always is good, and same goes for the bad low draw. So even if we are screwed we gain by getting rid of some competition.

I also explained why it is very unlikely we're beat for high. The low boards are playing exactly like a good and bad low draw, respectively and the high board is just calling and had to have started with Q7Q, Q3Q, or trips to beat us. And those cards are really dead. And more importantly, someone who has a high hand good enough to *re-raise* with on 3d can be expected to put in another raise when he improves.

So yeah, we only have a pair, and a somewhat dead on at that, and the other guys have something. But I've put in a fairly credible explanation why we're good against that something despite just having a pair and why good things can happen by a raise.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

For instance, suppose we're up against the following line up:

Ah Ad Kh 5s Td
Qd Jh Qh 7s 3s
6c 3h 4h 5c Qc
5h 4d 7d 2h Kc

Ie, two lowdraws and one with open-ended straight possibilities. By getting rid of the other high hand we increase our equity from 24% to 33%. If we don't succeed in that we lose a tiny bit, but nothing worth crying over.

If we're up against a four-flush and four-low we change our equity from 18% to 29% by thinning the field.

If we're up against two lowdraws without good high possibilities we have 30% equity in a four-way pot and increase that to frickin' 45% by isolating against the lows.

If we're up against trips, we're obviously destroyed. But for that to be true someone has to have trips with one queen dead, parleyed with them changing from pounding to slowplay.

It's just not credible that Q73 has us directly beat for high. I'd estimate it to be somewhere in the 1-5% vincinity, if that. A flushdraw would be pretty bad, but those aren't exactly a huge part of a reasonable, or unreasonable, re-raise distribution on third.

There's some oddball potential in the low boards starting with QQ (KKK is impossible now) 22, 444, 55 or 77 in the hole, or anyone else than us having AA. And those situations will screw us up, but they are pretty damn unlikely.

To me, it seems like a huge mistake not to raise.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

I don't see how this is good. The Q is probably raising because the K is dead. I would 3-bet 3rd multiway and as played checkraise 4th. You can't let all those low cards see 5th cheap.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how this is good. The Q is probably raising because the K is dead. I would 3-bet 3rd multiway and as played checkraise 4th. You can't let all those low cards see 5th cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't like re-raising 3d, because it definies your minimum hand a lot, and typically doesn't net you all that much in value. It also means you may be unable to jam fourth if both low draws brick.

4th, I don't know. Main problem is that I think you're not the equity favorite with the two low draws. Maybe you should raise, but it's a lot less clear than on 5th.

Looking at it, it does seem like it's good to raise 4th too. But it's not to punish the low draws; for every bet you put in you benefit the low hands. It's the second best high hand you want to get rid off/extract value from.

If this were against two low hands only, I very much doubt fourth would be a raise.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how this is good. The Q is probably raising because the K is dead. I would 3-bet 3rd multiway and as played checkraise 4th. You can't let all those low cards see 5th cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't like re-raising 3d, because it definies your minimum hand pretty well and makes it incredibly easy to play against you on later streets.

4th, I don't know. Main problem is that I think you're not the equity favorite with the two low draws. Maybe you should raise, but it's a lot less clear than on 5th.

Looking at it, it does seem like it's good to raise 4th too. But it's not to punish the low draws; for every bet you put in you benefit the low hands. It's the second best high hand you want to get rid off/extract value from.

If this were against two low hands only, I very much doubt fourth would be a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't care if it defines my hand. I have aces and I am representing kings. I don't want people seeing 4th cheaply with low pairs or low draws. Also, I could make the same play here with a draw and the best door card.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

I think 4th as played has to be a CR just to get rid of the Q, never mind the other two people in the hand.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care if it defines my hand. I have aces and I am representing kings.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, that's the problem. KK and AA is functionally equivalent here and it's going to make it much harder for you to make the other high hand a jamming partner on 4th and 5th.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want people seeing 4th cheaply with low pairs or low draws.

[/ QUOTE ]You don't actually have that much equity in a 4-way pot. So no, at this point you're not charging them much at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I could make the same play here with a draw and the best door card.

[/ QUOTE ]That does make it better, but in that case you're putting in a lot of money with really crappy equity.

It just seems much simpler to just call here and put in the raise on 4th when you can actually expect someone to fold.

Looking at 4th further, raising does seem mandatory. But it's still not doing a thing against low draws.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

Aces and kings are similar, but aces are better, particularly since they are live and concealed here.

I have no idea what hands the low cards have, but I think you should charge them the max if they want to continue. I don't agree that you don't have a lot of equity. Also, you may even get someone to fold.

If you jam with a K and a draw, it is not a terrible play, as you do have decent equity and may pick up the pot if you make an open pair or the Q doesn't improve. Also, my point is that 3-betting 3rd does not completely define your hand as kings, aces, or rolled up, as you could make the play with a draw.

If I am sitting there with small pair good kicker or 3-flush with atleast one low card, I am not going to be happy calling a lot of bets on early streets. Also, I would be concerned with the Q that I was way behind. With a big pair, you want to pressure your opponents and make it hard for them to draw out on you.

Re: Stud8 - (AA)K facing reraise from Q door
 

[ QUOTE ]
Aces and kings are similar, but aces are better, particularly since they are live and concealed here.

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't mean equitywise, just that knowing that you have kings isn't very different from knowing that you have aces.

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what hands the low cards have, but I think you should charge them the max if they want to continue. I don't agree that you don't have a lot of equity. Also, you may even get someone to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, the low hands have already called a raise + reraise from you and Q. So them folding for one extra bet should be in the neighbourhood of "never". Same goes for Q-guy.

I also think this makes it much less likely that they have the type of hands you have significant equity against, ie pairs, rather than low hands which you don't benefit all that much from. It also makes your lower pairs or draws much worse off.

So I'm weighing the low boards *much* more towards 3-lows than when the pot isn't raised. Which is why I don't think you have all that much equity in this spot.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I would be concerned with the Q that I was way behind. With a big pair,

[/ QUOTE ]Well yes, that's kind of why I don't like it. I want to be able to use the Q as a lever on later streets if the lows doesn't work out. Or being able to jam him if the lows actually do hit.

Also, you're going to be mostly OOP.

Taking the big pairs out of your call distribution would mess with you a lot against perceptive opponents, which is mostly how I think about the game. That's going to matter much less here though.

My main concern is basically that capping 3d is going to make jamming much less likely on 4th and 5th. And those are streets you very much want jammed when going high.

For instance, take the case where you cap 3d and both lows blanks on 4th. Now Q-guy is much less likely to raise you than if you donk after just calling on 3d.