Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

* grunch *

I think preflop is pretty easy call for set purposes with this many players.

On flop I too go for the check raise since my position to the preflop raiser is likely to trap lottsa players, and it sounds like villain is more opt to bet than check (even with this many opponents). But even if villain doesn't bet, hopefully someone else will bet their top pair so I can maybe get in a check/raise that way. If it didn't get heads up right away I would continue raising. But now that it's heads up right away, do we potentially get more value by simply calling and then leading the turn hoping to 3bet then? I sometimes just keep autoraising the flop in this case when I should be thinking of getting the maximum...

Boy, villain sure likes her hand; set over set is just destined to lose a lotta bets I guess...

GcluelessnoobG

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

Okay, so good or bad, I just called the 5 bet by her on the flop. She then says, "Hmmmm. okay". So she figures that her hand is good since I didn't go a 6th bet. So far so good. The turn comes off the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I lead out, She says "Wow you bet into that?" She just calls now. River comes the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I bet again and she just calls. She looks perplexed & has no idea what I have at this point since I bet into her on the turn and the river. It really threw her off I think. I show my set and she tables QKo. She says "Wow, I didn't put you on that at all in the small blind"

With her little speech there after I just call the 5 bet on the flop, I wonder if it would have been likely to get another C/R in on the turn? Not really sure. It would have sucked to have it check through though on the turn and miss a bet so I didn't attempt it. That and I was hoping to get a 3rd bet in on the turn by leading out. But oh well, UPS.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

A lot of players who don't have the nuts or near nuts will slip into check-call mode if you do something that doesn't make sense, such as leading at a card that shouldn't help you. It's a tendency that makes a bet-fold line in certain situations work.

Against this particular player, it feels like her range based on the flop is KQ/QQ/KK. She doesn't sound like the sort to jam here with JT or AK. Would she with AA? Another question that you should ask yourself is if she is the sort who jams the flop with a set or slows down in order to maximize getting another bet in a bigger street.

Since her failure to raise the turn makes it look like she has KQ, I think that a possible play that you may have missed is going for the check-raise on the river.

You asked about how far you should go before slowing down. I think that The Mathematics of Poker suggested that 4-5 bets was enough with the second nuts vs a game theoretical opponent, but the exploitative strategy against a non-optimal opponent is different and you're not on the end here.

P.S. Where was this played? I think that all the places I have played allowed unlimited raising in heads-up pots only on streets that begin heads up.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

HG

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

At Bay 101, the caps comes off in any betting round, once only 2 players in it. Don't need to start a round heads up.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
With her little speech there after I just call the 5 bet on the flop, I wonder if it would have been likely to get another C/R in on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

When someone is putting in that much action on the flop, and you just call the last bet, they'll usually bet the turn when checked to.

When you bet into her, that says you have a hand and aren't drawing, but are likely afraid that she is. Which could slow her down because that's why they'd likely bet out in your spot. You're betting into a flop 5 bettor. After 5 bets, it's highly unlikely she's drawing. What's she going to put you on at that point?

Although you made out pretty good on this one, you left some of the meat in the water.

b

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

Def agree with you there B. That is why I can't help but wonder if I should have gone for the turn C/R.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Def agree with you there B. That is why I can't help but wonder if I should have gone for the turn C/R.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say if I just called the last bet on the flop, I'm c/r'ing the turn here almost all the time. If they raise that, then I'm calling down.(player depending, obviously)

Unless certain cards hit that might kill my action. Like an A(or a 3rd flush card if the flop was 2-tone). Then I might bet out.

C/r'ing the turn does a couple possible things. One is if you get 3 bet, you can then call it out as that 3 bet is pretty strong given the action up to that point. You've basically turned your hand over at that point and they're still firing. If you bet out and get raised, then you'd be inclined to 3 bet(I would. The range is still wider when they just raise). Well, if they 4 bet that you're really going to hate it. The most you'd really want to see go in on the turn, against most opponents, is 3 bets. But usually on that 3rd bet, when they put it in, you're in calling mode. When you put it in, you're hoping for no 4 bet.

Not sure if I explained that well. But the turn c/r helps protect you a little when behind.

b

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

You flop line is a function of how many callers you can get trapped for 2-bets. Normally the PFR is not going to 3-bet in a live game, and at these limits, they might call two-anyway.

Now C/R the turn.